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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

851 replies

QueenPeary · 21/08/2021 13:36

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

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TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 20:09

@Datun no I'm a mother of 3 with a male partner.

I do believe trans women are different than cis straight men yes. I really do, clearly that's where the disparity is coming from and why I'm getting so much hate.

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 20:10

You're not getting hate Hmm. So teenage... Do you have daughters?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/08/2021 20:10

I do believe trans women are different than cis straight men yes. I really do, clearly that's where the disparity is coming from and why I'm getting so much hate.

You are not getting hate. You are getting disagreement.

TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 20:11

Sorry yes, disagreement.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 20:11

I'm getting so much hate.

Hardly Hmm more hyperbole. You're being challenged in a way that you're probably unused to.

TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 20:11

Teenage? I didn't say teenage, I'm 27 my children are very little.

RedDogsBeg · 21/08/2021 20:11

Persecuting a minority when the biggest threat to women is sadly hetero cis men who they are likely to know and love.

The biggest threat to women and girls is MEN irrespective of how they identify or what they wear or what name or pronouns they choose.

MALES. MEN. TW ARE MALE. MEN.

It is not persecution TW have the same access to toilets, changing rooms and other services as the rest of their sex.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/08/2021 20:12

I do believe trans women are different than cis straight men yes. I really do

Hang on, so are you saying TW are the same as gay men?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/08/2021 20:12

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Most violence and sexual assault is committed against women and girls by a family member or partner. This is exactly why I am so exacerbated with the amount of feminist energy directed these days at delegitimising random trans women who might be using the same toilet as you.

Again you are arguing against single sex spaces .

... and in refuges and rape crisis centres those women and girls, when given the chance to say what they want and need, anonymously, without the risk of being labelled as transphobic, say they want a space for females only, with just very young boys admitted along with their mums.
QueenPeary · 21/08/2021 20:12

Biological sex can be altered, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy,

Kids can have sweets for every meal, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy...
Kids could learn to drive, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy...
Legs can be chopped off, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy...
We could let kids have alcohol and heroin if they want it - if that's what a kid needs to be happy...

The thing is kids don't necessarily know what they need to be happy, because they have short-term awareness that's not informed by much experience, and they can't foresee certain consequences. That's why parents, the state and the law have the responsibility to guide kids and say no to them on some things.

That's why if a 10yo says to a GP "I know I don't want babies, so can I be sterilised" the GP will say, no, you can't make that decision yet because you might change your mind even though it might not seem like it now.

It's really important that we don't let kids make damaging decisions about their bodies that they are too young to understand. Preventing their puberty with blockers is not a reasonable action to prevent the situation of going through a puberty you don't want. Most kids don't enjoy puberty and find it an alarming and stressful time but it's essential to achieving maturity, not just sexual but mental maturity. Having achieved that mental maturity, most kids will reconcile with their sex and have a well-adjusted life in which their fertility and sexual function hasn't been taken away from them.

It should not be about what a minor thinks will make them happy on the basis of a shedload of misinformation.

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TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 20:12

Sorry, hate as the wrong word. I do feel there is a lot of, I don;t know, emotion? Frustration? In the way some responses are written. I am a sensitive person though, perhaps I am misinterpreting.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 21/08/2021 20:13

By the way, 129 extra transwomen added to that average number of incarcerated women would mean we had a female prison population in which 4% of inmates were transwomen.

Those 129 would affect the lives of the other 3000+ women, the prison guards, and the families of those women. I wouldn't like to find out that my teenage niece was now in the same building as Jessica Winfield, would you?

HAHelp · 21/08/2021 20:13

I asked upthread @TheFairPrincess about a scenario where your (potential) daughter - (am not asking you if you have one or not) had an significant opportunity taken away from her by a TW who retained significant male privilege and wondered what you'd say to that future adult child?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/08/2021 20:13

People are frustrated because

"I believe that TW xyz"

"The evidence doesn't show that"

"But I believe it and you are all really mean"

GoodieMoomin · 21/08/2021 20:14

I really struggle to understand the thought process that leads anyone to think that any subset of males should have access to women's spaces, for any reason. Especially if they understand that this will have a negative impact on many women.

As soon as one male, of any kind, accesses a women's single sex space, it is no longer single sex. Some women will no longer be able to access it and the women who do continue to access it may be less safe.

Why should any woman have to put up with that?

I don't think protecting any subset of males from other males is a job for women or feminists, especially not at our own expense.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 20:14

says in the report trans women serving shorter sentences weren't included.

The 1 in 50 male prisoners that identify as transgender that another official source claimed? Not so trifling, is it?

ohstopityourmakingitup · 21/08/2021 20:14

@TheFairPrincess

Of course women are mostly attacked by their partner. Most violence and sexual assault is committed against women and girls by a family member or partner

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg

except these women .....

QueenPeary · 21/08/2021 20:15

I do believe trans women are different than cis straight men yes. I really do, clearly that's where the disparity is coming from and why I'm getting so much hate.

Don't the facts matter to you? You have had it explained clearly and been shown the evidence that TW are aligned with men, not women, in important measurable ways including the danger they pose to women.

And secondly, why do you think people disagreeing with you and pointing out that you are factually incorrect is "hate"? I think this thread has been polite on the whole.

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Datun · 21/08/2021 20:15

@TheFairPrincess

Because the sample size is tiny, and because the sample size is taken from longer serving crimes, it says in the report trans women serving shorter sentences weren't included.

Longer sentences tend to be for violent crimes. Violent crime is often sexual.

Those people should be kept out of female spaces. Let's not get it twisted, I'm just defending case by case basis, compassionate access where needed and appropriate. People are messaging me a lot and I'm addressing single arguments or single sentences. I hope people can understand that I'm not some crazy TRA. I just believe in trans inclusivity wherever possible and appropriate, because society should be compassionate. How can we live in a society that doesn't care about vulnerable people? We are vulnerable and should be granted protections. They are vulnerable also, and to similar types of crime.

Jesus, women are human, you know. We're not just here to validate the feelings of men, however vulnerable.

We don't suddenly say give access to all gay men, or all old men, or men with mental health issues - all vulnerable. We don't decide oh just come in here. Women aren't human shields.

There are numerous women for whom the presence of a man, any man, is entirely triggering. You're actually being exclusionary. The sexism is off the scale.

Jesus. Women are never really seen, are they?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 20:16

I am a sensitive person though

Really? Not where the feelings of women and girls who don't want to share spaces with males are concerned, I'd say. All out of empathy there.

TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 20:17

I do get that, I really do, I struggle with this all the time.

I just feel like people who go through their lives as subjects as ridicule and persecution, taking hormones and getting feminisation surgery, all sorts, are really not doing this so they can harm women. That's what I mean when I say we shouldn't discriminate. How can a TW who has gone through all that feel safe in male spaces? If sex is binary, and there isn't a third gender, and they identify, live as women, how can we not include them when they need to be included?

And how often do they even need to be included? Is the time and effort we spend fighting off trans equality worth it? Is there not a middle ground or specific situations where we can say it is or isn't appropriate?

RedDogsBeg · 21/08/2021 20:17

You are a sensitive person TheFairPrincess and yet you dismiss entirely the sensitivities of other women who, for whatever reason, cannot share spaces with males (and TW are male). Where is your compassion or sensitivity for them? Happy that they will self exclude from all the single sex spaces and services that are designed for their use and their already small world will shrink even more because you place the feelings of males above them?

GreyhoundG1rl · 21/08/2021 20:17

@TheFairPrincess

Teenage? I didn't say teenage, I'm 27 my children are very little.
Are any of your children girls?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/08/2021 20:18

Jesus, women are human, you know. We're not just here to validate the feelings of men, however vulnerable.

We don't suddenly say give access to all gay men, or all old men, or men with mental health issues - all vulnerable. We don't decide oh just come in here. Women aren't human shields.

There are numerous women for whom the presence of a man, any man, is entirely triggering. You're actually being exclusionary. The sexism is off the scale.

Jesus. Women are never really seen, are they?

No, we aren't.

TheFairPrincess · 21/08/2021 20:18

@Ereshkigalangcleg I don't need your validation or approval. I'm just expressing my thoughts and feelings like everyone else.