I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

@TheFairPrincess

But a few hundred thousand people aren't going to have the reach to effect billions of women!

Are you saying that as statically speaking you’re unlikely to get attacked that it doesn’t matter? So what about about the women and children who do? Are they cannon fodder or something? And what about exhibitionists or just scaring women. Does that not count.

You do realise that sex offenders don’t only offend once? They’ll have attacked dozens of women.

During the day when they mix with women they are supervised by prison staff

Yeah, and it was during this mixing whilst being ''supervised'' that a woman was sexually assaulted.

There's also this. Absolutely sickening.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9819631/I-sexually-assaulted-womens-prison-fellow-inmate-male-genitalia.html

From ''Amy'', the woman who had to go to court to ask that the most vulnerable women not be locked up with convicted rapists and sex offenders.

Although she hated prison, Amy tells me that away from male sexual predators, and among other women who had been through similar experiences, she felt safe for the first time in her life.

'But I stopped feeling safe knowing trans sex offenders were housed beside me,' she says. Her fears were, sadly, not misplaced: a year or so into her sentence she was sexually assaulted by J.

It is pertinent, too, that she was working at the time in the prison gym — a vital provision because it allowed prisoners to 'let off steam, talk to others and get off the wing for a bit', generally improving their mental health. But these benefits were nullified when J was given the job of gym cleaner.

The sexual assault took place in the toilets of the gym, which were left unguarded and without CCTV.

It was supposed to be my sanctuary,' says Amy. 'I felt so distressed. Prison is an awful place to be under any circumstances, and this just made it 100 times worse

Good job of ''supervising'' they're doing

Hang on a minute, not long back it was being argued that the needs of women who wanted single-sex spaces were unimportant because they were a minority and outnumbered by transwomen

Huh? When did I say that? I have never said women were a minority? Were you referring to someone else?

@ohstopityourmakingitup

129 TW in prison, 76 are sex offenders (58.9%

Bloody hell

I was quite astonished by the numbers, and fascinated by anyone being unsurprised.

The source was:committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf (triggers download)

@TheFairPrincess

They also for some reason don't "count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC)" which is very confusing to me?

No they don't.

Their offences are recorded as female ones so we don't actually have separate data for this group.

@TheFairPrincess

They also for some reason don't "count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC)" which is very confusing to me?

Because they are considered legally female. So their statistics go in the female column. Which is why women's sexual offences, statistically, are increasing.

What next, targeting education of young girls to stop them offending later in life?

Sex matters.

@TheFairPrincess

129 TW in prison, 76 are sex offenders (58.9%) 78781 men in prison, 13234 are sex offenders (16.8%)

129 trans women prisoners in total?

Is that not a manageable number on which to make case by case decisions?

I mean 129 people..

Sorry, the reason I'm not surprised that the percentage of sexual predators is that men commit the majority of crime. So 78000 men have committed all sorts of crime, whereas there are 129 trans women in prison.

Also this BBC article reported on these statistics:

The 125 transgender prisoners counted in the survey are more likely to be serving longer sentences.

That's because prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference - so are less likely to be counted.

The MoJ explained that prisoners serving long sentences are more likely to be serving time for sexual offences than those on shorter sentences.

Trans prisoners on shorter sentences - who won't be in the survey - are less likely to be sex offenders.

That means that it's unlikely that as many as half of all transgender prisoners have been convicted of a sexual offence - once you take into account those trans prisoners who weren't surveyed.

Transgender journalist and campaigner Jane Fae warns against reading too much into the available figures.

"The real danger is that the public are likely to misinterpret them in a way that will create unwarranted hostility toward the minority under the microscope. The fall-out in terms of violence and abuse will, in some cases, be significant."

You'll be aware that Jane Fae has been campaigning for many years for unfettered access to the most violent forms of pornography. This is not a person I'd be turning to for any form of leadership or advice on issues of women's safety.

@TheFairPrincess

They also for some reason don't "count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC)" which is very confusing to me?

Because they are counted as women.

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

Puberty blockers are harmless and trans kids should have access to them once they reach puberty age, in order to prevent any irreversible changes.

Biological sex can be altered, and if that's what a kid needs to be happy, they should not be locked out of developing the kind of body they want.

Dear god, what a load of nonsense.

It is nonsense and dangerous nonsense at that.

Anyway, this will be a very enlightning thread. Hexed wants all men, no matter what, to be given access to women for validation purposes, whilst Princess only wants some.

The answer is no.

any^ person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault,^

And people who are "inclusive" will tell them their discomfort isn't important and they should get over themselves.

@Datun

You are conflating 2 completely different scenarios.

Of course women are mostly attacked by their partner. Most violence and sexual assault is committed against women and girls by a family member or partner. This is exactly why I am so exacerbated with the amount of feminist energy directed these days at delegitimising random trans women who might be using the same toilet as you. It's actually an argument I've directly made, under a different username.

It just doesn't make sense. Persecuting a minority when the biggest threat to women is sadly hetero cis men who they are likely to know and love. Not the trans women walking out of the John Lewis public toilets..

@Ereshkigalangcleg

any^ person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault,^

And people who are "inclusive" will tell them their discomfort isn't important and they should get over themselves.

Exactly, how many times have we been told we just learn need to 'learn to cope,' or 'try harder'.

The answer isn't no though? In the UK, we respect that trans women have some rights to access single sex spaces.

Of course women are mostly attacked by their partner
You've missed the bloody point. Again.

I mean 129 people..

Do you know how many female prisons there are in this country?

11.

So that averages out at 11 transwomen per prison

Also, over the period 2014-2019, the female prison population of England and Wales was an average of 3274.

Does 129 still look like a titchy number?

Sorry, the reason I'm not surprised that the percentage of sexual predators is that men commit the majority of crime. So 78000 men have committed all sorts of crime, whereas there are 129 trans women in prison.

I am confused. You are not surprised that 59% of TW prisoners are sex offenders compared to 17% of men? I'm not sure you understand percentages? Why would you expect TW to be so much more likely to be sexual offenders than other men? Why would you not expect them to exhibit similar percentages to men (or even women)?

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Datun

You are conflating 2 completely different scenarios.

Of course women are mostly attacked by their partner. Most violence and sexual assault is committed against women and girls by a family member or partner. This is exactly why I am so exacerbated with the amount of feminist energy directed these days at delegitimising random trans women who might be using the same toilet as you. It's actually an argument I've directly made, under a different username.

It just doesn't make sense. Persecuting a minority when the biggest threat to women is sadly hetero cis men who they are likely to know and love. Not the trans women walking out of the John Lewis public toilets..[/quote]
Being trans doesn't exclude men from committing the exact same crimes!

Why don't you get about that?

Have you read the transwidows threads? And how abusive their lives have been?

Most violence and sexual assault is committed against women and girls by a family member or partner. This is exactly why I am so exacerbated with the amount of feminist energy directed these days at delegitimising random trans women who might be using the same toilet as you.

Again you are arguing against single sex spaces .

TheFairPrincess

You seem to think that men who identify as women are different, in terms of behaviour and crime statistics from men who don't identify as women.

Why is that? It's patently not true.

Are you trans? Are you married to someone who is trans?

I would hope that experienced staff and tbh any person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault, in most cases

Wow. So it's women's fault then that they didn't recognise the predatory behaviour quickly enough. Don't you think women would remove themselves from this situation if it was possible to do so? Considering the majority of women will experience some level of sexual assault at some point in their lives, then we're all clearly doing something wrong eh. So let's fling open the doors of women's safe spaces. As women should be able to spot it in time. 😡

You'll be aware that Jane Fae has been campaigning for many years for unfettered access to the most violent forms of pornography. This is not a person I'd be turning to for any form of leadership or advice on issues of women's safety.

and a reduction in the age of consent for participants in said violent pornography, and guess which sex the people are who are on the receiving end of this violence, and this is the person you listen to and quote? What do you think that says about you and your judgement?

@Datun don't be sucked into making it personal, we can't afford for you to be banned.

Because the sample size is tiny, and because the sample size is taken from longer serving crimes, it says in the report trans women serving shorter sentences weren't included.

Longer sentences tend to be for violent crimes. Violent crime is often sexual.

Those people should be kept out of female spaces. Let's not get it twisted, I'm just defending case by case basis, compassionate access where needed and appropriate. People are messaging me a lot and I'm addressing single arguments or single sentences. I hope people can understand that I'm not some crazy TRA. I just believe in trans inclusivity wherever possible and appropriate, because society should be compassionate. How can we live in a society that doesn't care about vulnerable people? We are vulnerable and should be granted protections. They are vulnerable also, and to similar types of crime.

[quote ItsAllGoingToBeFine]@Datun don't be sucked into making it personal, we can't afford for you to be banned.[/quote]
There's absolutely nothing in the rules to say you can't ask if someone is trans? Or who has a family member who is?

It makes the ideological position far easier to understand, in my opinion.