I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

Literally dozens of people have power over billions.

Yes.

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.
In both those scenarios, the risk of harm is coming from males.

By the age of 18, Katie Dolatowski had managed to affect three different people, directly, and KD would also have affected the lives of their families, indirectly.

Katie then went on to affect the lives of all the women in that hostel.

@TheFairPrincess

Prison figures show that either TW are far more likely to be sexual predators than males as a whole

Wrong. Transwomen prisoners are more likely to be sexual predators than male prisoners

Not that surprising.

Apologies, you are quite right I phrased that badly:

129 TW in prison, 76 are sex offenders (58.9%)
78781 men in prison, 13234 are sex offenders (16.8%)

I am interested though in why you are unsuprised?

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.

Where's your evidence for this?

And why is putting women at risk your answer to solving male on male violence?

Women and children are not human shields.

But they aren't in positions of power

But a few hundred thousand people aren't going to have the reach to effect billions of women!

There's really no upper limit here - there are 3 billion men, and rules are being set up to allow them to enter female spaces on demand.

There may only be a few hundred thousand "transwomen" by whatever definition of "male-with-female behaviour" you imagine, but there are far, far more men who will be inclined to take advantage of rules that mean they can no longer be excluded.

We saw the sort of confusion that these rules/attitudes cause at Wi Spa - a woman complains about a man with his cock out in the nude women's area, and some random passer-by berates the woman, insisting that the person is transgender so it's okay. (With no actual knowledge of the person, just on the assumption that cock-in-women's-space=transgender, so cock-in-women's-space is automatically fine, and any woman complaining is automatically a transphobic bigot!)

Roughly 1.5 million women in the UK have been raped, or have faced an attempted rape.

Presumably, no-one thinks there are 1.5 million rapists in the UK.

The numbers of bad apples are disproportionate to the amount of harm they cause.

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.

It is not just a risk of harm, it is denying females the right to privacy, dignity and comfort, why do you care so little for women and girls that you would advocate this is favour of men? That position is out and out misogyny.

Show me the evidence of transwomen in male spaces being harmed, I have looked and looked and can find none, zero, nada. It is a load of manufactured nonsense that you've swallowed hook, line and sinker. Prove me wrong.

I dare you @TheFairPrincess to look in the eyes of the 10 year old and 12 year old girl who were assaulted in a female only single sex toilet by Katie Dolatowski and tell them that what happened to them is just something they have to live with as it's not fair to exclude TW from female only spaces and services. How comfortable do you think either of those girls will be now accessing the toilets that are designed for them, for their safety, privacy, dignity and comfort on their own? You are prioritising TW, who are male, over those girls - you should be ashamed.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I would hope that experienced staff and tbh any person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault, in most cases.

It's not an ideal situation is it, it's about doing our best to keep people safe. Do people really think someone dressed and living completely as a woman, taking female hormones, feminising their appearance, is going to be safe in single sex male environments? Because that's what I just can't get past.

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.[/quote]
You've been asked over and over again and I haven't seen a reply yet - why do their wants and needs trump those of the far larger group of women, ie adult human females, who want to maintain the single sex spaces and services we have only very recently secured?

Is this female socialisation in action - put the males first?

Why aren't you working for third spaces if you're so sure transwomen are unsafe in male spaces?

Above all, why is all of this on women to sort out? Why aren't you lobbying males to change their behaviour?

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.

This means you're saying you can expect TW to come to harm in a male toilet. Because of the men there. So TW should be protected from men. Even though we shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush or make policy on the basis of a few bad apples, it is OK to do that with men, because some bad apples are likely to attack TW.

We know we can expect women to come to harm when not given their own self spaces away from males – this has been proven over millennia. That's why there is such a thing as a female only space.

Now you want males to be able to share that space, even though we know TW offend against women at the same rates as men. So it is no different from letting men in. Indeed any man can now enter women's toilet by just saying he's a woman.

How can you not see these are the same situation?

You think TW should get to be safe from men.

But women shouldn't - because TW wants trump everything.

Why? Why?

@TheFairPrincess

The argument seems to be that trans women, while being physically male, are actually not going to behave in the same way as other males (ie, that not all, not even a majority, but enough to be a problem, will encroach on female people socially, physically and culturally in a way that disempowers and often physically harms them), but do in fact behave like females, and therefore that it is right, good and proper to include trans women, but no other males, in the previously single-sex provision for females

Yah definitely this is what I think. How do you prove by omission though? You're asking me to quantify a psychological mindset really - the idea that at least most TW behave like women and not men. I don't know how to provide that.

We're not dismantling anything or making any changes though, this is the way things are, like, currently.

How do you prove by omission though? You're asking me to quantify a psychological mindset really - the idea that at least most TW behave like women and not men. I don't know how to provide that.

Jesus. You collect statistics and evidence. You prove that the thing you feel should be true actually is true before you dismantle protections that exist in response to a known, provable and material risk to female people.

You could start by explaining the prison stats posted earlier in the thread.

We're not dismantling anything or making any changes though, this is the way things are, like, currently.

Yeah, they kind of, like, aren't though, because broadly female people still benefit from the social convention that Women-only means single sex. But that social convention is under concerted attack from the Stonewalls and TRAs of this world who want to establish the right and social acceptance of any male to identify as a woman and get identical access to anything that a female person has.

But they aren't in positions of power

Physically males are almost always in a position of power over females. Many obviously choose to do nothing about that. Other males do.

Alone in a female toilet with a male also there, the power dynamic is pretty apparent. Clue: it's not the woman whose holding that power.

One transman complained about packaging on sanitary products.

It got changed.

One person complained about the "I love JKR" sign on the Edinburgh underground.

It got removed.

I'm sure more people can come up with more examples of a very small number of people having a macro effect. They are never women having this effect though.

Wrong. Transwomen prisoners are more likely to be sexual predators than male prisoners

Not that surprising.

You're not surprised, TheFairPrincess? Yet you advocate they have free access to women's spaces on demand??

But they aren't in positions of power

I disagree. They are male. In a female only space, regardless of what female people feel about that.

Sorry, never self identified women and also adult human females, to be more precise.

129 TW in prison, 76 are sex offenders (58.9%

Bloody hell

Hang on a minute, not long back it was being argued that the needs of women who wanted single-sex spaces were unimportant because they were a minority and outnumbered by transwomen.

Now it's being argued that transwomen are more important because they are a minority and outnumbered by women.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Hang on a minute, not long back it was being argued that the needs of women who wanted single-sex spaces were unimportant because they were a minority and outnumbered by transwomen.

Now it's being argued that transwomen are more important because they are a minority and outnumbered by women.

Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.

129 TW in prison, 76 are sex offenders (58.9%)
78781 men in prison, 13234 are sex offenders (16.8%)

129 trans women prisoners in total?

Is that not a manageable number on which to make case by case decisions?

I mean 129 people..

Sorry, the reason I'm not surprised that the percentage of sexual predators is that men commit the majority of crime. So 78000 men have committed all sorts of crime, whereas there are 129 trans women in prison.

Also this BBC article reported on these statistics:

The 125 transgender prisoners counted in the survey are more likely to be serving longer sentences.

That's because prisoners serving shorter sentences are less likely to have a case conference - so are less likely to be counted.

The MoJ explained that prisoners serving long sentences are more likely to be serving time for sexual offences than those on shorter sentences.

Trans prisoners on shorter sentences - who won't be in the survey - are less likely to be sex offenders.

That means that it's unlikely that as many as half of all transgender prisoners have been convicted of a sexual offence - once you take into account those trans prisoners who weren't surveyed.

Transgender journalist and campaigner Jane Fae warns against reading too much into the available figures.

"The real danger is that the public are likely to misinterpret them in a way that will create unwarranted hostility toward the minority under the microscope. The fall-out in terms of violence and abuse will, in some cases, be significant."

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Hang on a minute, not long back it was being argued that the needs of women who wanted single-sex spaces were unimportant because they were a minority and outnumbered by transwomen.

Now it's being argued that transwomen are more important because they are a minority and outnumbered by women.

As usual Purgatory the argument switches, changes and contradicts itself at will because they have no compelling, evidence based argument.

Mind you the it's not fair is a new one. Pathetic, but new.

@TheFairPrincess

Anecdotes are not data though. I still do not believe that was done in good faith, and if it somehow was, then it's still a poor way to convince someone because again, anecdata don't cut it.

If your thesis is that trans women are totally interchangeable with female people for the specific metric of risk of perpetrating sexual violence, and there is an individual instance of a trans woman committing rape with a penis, a crime that cannot be committed by a female person, ever, that anecdote is also relevant data.

They also for some reason don't "count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC)" which is very confusing to me?

TheFairPrincess

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I would hope that experienced staff and tbh any person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault, in most cases.

Oh ffs. What's it like in that ivory tower?

Women cannot, and do not recognise predatory behaviour before it starts. Most women are killed, raped or attacked by their partner.

Not only can they not predict 'inappropriate' behaviour they go ahead and fall in love with predators and rapists and marry them. And then have a family!

For God sake.