I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

@TheFairPrincess

So why would your supposition that all women feel uncomfortable around trans women and therefore these feelings should not be trumped, trump theirs that should say.

Because safety trumps feelings.

The easy solution is a third space.

In terms of numbers, you are putting the feelings of a few hundred thousand people over millions.

What is special about that group of people that makes it more important to consider their feelings?

@TheFairPrincess

Can I please point out that I have never :

Stated that genuine trans women can't be predators

Stated that there is no possibility of predators pretending to be trans to take advantage of this social compassion within the law

Great.

So your position is that some males will lie about being trans to get into sex-segregated spaces/services, for various nefarious reasons, and that doesn't matter as the key thing is that the genuine ones get in there and get what they want, regardless of what the female users of said spaces/services want or need.

What exactly will happen to transwomen if they use men's toilets, by the way?

Society cannot apply blanket discriminatory rules based on anyones' feelings alone. While society's laws of based on moral principles which can change and evolve, our laws in the UK at least are still based on human rights and the principle of not allowing discrimination.

We have single sex spaces because the vast majority of offences and even greater majority of sexual offences are carried out by men. Therefore based on this evidence we have single sex spaces which discriminate against men.

So why would your supposition that all women feel uncomfortable around trans women and therefore these feelings should not be trumped, that is just your subjective opinion on the situation. It literally doesn't align with anything substantive, demonstrably so as the law does not fall on your side.

Prison figures show that either TW are far more likely to be sexual predators than males as a whole, or that sexually predatory men often identify as TW. This and the evidence around male offending is the evidence based reason why all males are excluded.

Most transgender male prisoners don’t get moved into a female prison. The ones who do are those who are deemed ‘safe’ or those who have changed their birth certificate to become legally female. Of that second group the ones considered ‘unsafe’ must sleep away from women in their own special accommodation block. During the day when they mix with women they are supervised by prison staff. The MOJ claims this risk mitigation approach fairly balances the rights of both the trans prisoners and the women, and the court agreed.

Reading the whole report it all sounds pretty reasonable and like they are taking the concerns of women seriously while doing their best to accommodate trans women where possible and appropriate. This all sounds positive? And I definitely support the bit that says more research is needed.

Prison is very different to public toilets though. On many levels. Trans people should still be able to live their lives outside of single sex spaces too.

thefairprincess and can you also see that the principle of allowing any man into women's spaces on the basis of self ID is going to actively attract predatory males, whether genuinely trans ID-ing or otherwise? In other words it makes the female toilets more dangerous than they would be with just a representative selection of TW going in, because predatory males will also take advantage of the situation.

The same as is happening in prisons with large numbers of convicted sex offenders IDing as women. Can you see that?

I also think your view of TW as a group is informed by a non-factual, non-statistical, idealised concept of a lovely feminine person who just wants to be accepted as a woman, a la Sophia in OITNB.

The reality is different. Have you seen the pages and pages of "choke on my lady dick" "pipe bomb" etc type threats and abuse aimed at GC women from TW on twitter? Have you seen the statistics that TW continue to offend at the same rates as men? Even after full transition?

Here's one source:
committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf

This is not transphobia, it's just fact. I'm not slating all TW as predators. It's just a fact that they pose a risk in just the same way as men do, and when you say:

I suppose it does come down to whether you believe TW are socially different to cis men. I certainly think they are.

You are just wrong. Statistically, factually, in reality, incorrect. I don't blame you - this narrative that TW are all just lovely harmless ladies who just want to pee has been massively pushed at us all.

But it's not jut that, it's also that many women just don't want male bodies and penises in their spaces because it intimidates them (for good reason - most women ave had bad experiences with men and know men can overpower them - even if nothing bad happens.

As you have been asked many times. why do you feel that TW's feelings matter, but women's don't? Please answer this.

What exactly will happen to transwomen if they use men's toilets, by the way?

Good question.

Prison figures show that either TW are far more likely to be sexual predators than males as a whole

Wrong. Transwomen prisoners are more likely to be sexual predators than male prisoners

Not that surprising.

@GregTransphobia

What exactly will happen to transwomen if they use men's toilets, by the way?

Good question.

Well Eddie Izzard for one wouldn't have to suffer gobby teenage girls calling him a pervert.

@Nellodee

In terms of numbers, you are putting the feelings of a few hundred thousand people over millions.

What is special about that group of people that makes it more important to consider their feelings?

They're men. And women and girls must validate their feelings. Even those in rape refugees, or prison, or mental health wards. Those with their knickers round their ankles, and those taking their clothes off in changing rooms.

This is what princess wants.

So why would your supposition that all women feel uncomfortable around trans women and therefore these feelings should not be trumped,trump theirsthat should say.

No-one said all.

We said some.

Unless you are saying the remainder are claiming they need transwomen in the spaces to feel safe, there is nothing to "trump".

Let us suppose we are flatmates and there are 5 women in the flat. There is a vacant room. Fred wants to move in. Four of us, including me, are al right with Fred moving in and being our sixth housemate. You don't. Do you know what that means? It means Fred doesn't move in, because it is your flat too. The alternative would mean Fred's feelings were more important that yours in your own space.

@TheFairPrincess

But my whole point the whole time has only ever been, you can support women's rights without being transphobic.

The thread was actually about trans identity and the poster expressing surprise that trans people did not actually literally believe they were the opposite sex. I had what I felt like was an interesting discussion, then got paraded with examples of rapists and abusers because I said I didn't necessarily agree all single sex spaces should be off limits to trans women all of the time? I do find it upsetting and offensive of course.

If transpeople didn't believe they were the opposite sex -

Why are males taking hormones to be able to breast feed babies?

Why are males on twitter talking about about their 'periods'?

Why are males taking women to court because they they won't wax their balls - despite them clearly stating they are female only services?

Why are males dressing up in nurses outfits and trying to give women smear tests and then trying to sue the women when she complains?

Why are males in women's prisons?

Why are males in women's rape centres?

Why are males in women's changing rooms?

Why are males taking women only jobs?

Why are males taking female only awards?

Why has a female tried to change her babies birth certificate to state that the 'father gave birth'?

Why @TheFairPrincess?

This thread was about two young girls. Their view is very different to the league of TRA.

You can support women's rights with out being transphobic. Saying "actually this is a female only space and needs to be preserved" isn't transphobic.

How about ... we teach ALL males that they need to accept trans women in male changing rooms and toilets. This really shouldn't be our issue.

Did the court agree that it balanced it? I thought it stated that this did place a risk on women, just not an illegal one. The court is not asked to make moral, only legal judgements, I thought.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I would hope that experienced staff and tbh any person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault, in most cases.

It's not an ideal situation is it, it's about doing our best to keep people safe. Do people really think someone dressed and living completely as a woman, taking female hormones, feminising their appearance, is going to be safe in single sex male environments? Because that's what I just can't get past.

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.

@TheFairPrincess

The argument seems to be that trans women, while being physically male, are actually not going to behave in the same way as other males (ie, that not all, not even a majority, but enough to be a problem, will encroach on female people socially, physically and culturally in a way that disempowers and often physically harms them), but do in fact behave like females, and therefore that it is right, good and proper to include trans women, but no other males, in the previously single-sex provision for females

Yah definitely this is what I think. How do you prove by omission though? You're asking me to quantify a psychological mindset really - the idea that at least most TW behave like women and not men. I don't know how to provide that.

We're not dismantling anything or making any changes though, this is the way things are, like, currently.

Crikey no wonder you’re so upset with what people are saying.

Please please stay on these boards and start reading what is written with an open mind. I started where you are when I was younger. Probably a lot of us did too. But my, was I wrong.

Do you not know anything about trans right activism?

Agree, Datun.

Wrong. Transwomen prisoners are more likely to be sexual predators than male prisoners
Not that surprising

Why isn't it surprising to you?

@TheFairPrincess

Most transgender male prisoners don’t get moved into a female prison. The ones who do are those who are deemed ‘safe’ or those who have changed their birth certificate to become legally female. Of that second group the ones considered ‘unsafe’ must sleep away from women in their own special accommodation block. During the day when they mix with women they are supervised by prison staff. The MOJ claims this risk mitigation approach fairly balances the rights of both the trans prisoners and the women, and the court agreed.

Reading the whole report it all sounds pretty reasonable and like they are taking the concerns of women seriously while doing their best to accommodate trans women where possible and appropriate. This all sounds positive? And I definitely support the bit that says more research is needed.

Prison is very different to public toilets though. On many levels. Trans people should still be able to live their lives outside of single sex spaces too.

As far as I recall, the accommodation block idea was never really used as the TW concerned forced prison services to stop it on the grounds of it being discriminatory. Keep Prisons Single Sex would have the info, but again measures put up to make mixed sex provision balanced against the needs of female people was overcome by male people to their benefit, against the best interests of the female people.

Reading the whole report it all sounds pretty reasonable and like they are taking the concerns of women seriously

Not preventing them suffering intimidation and assault though, which would be more to the point.

Again, try reading some of the women's accounts on the Keep Prison Single Sex page for the reality of what they are facing on a daily basis. It's not acceptable.

TheFairPrincess, I am the child of two social workers.

The one thing I was brought up aware of is that so many people who are out to abuse you go to great lengths to throw people off this scent. I would not expect staff to recognise warning signs. The whole point of safeguarding is that you should not expect to see any, you should act as thought anyone, anywhere is capable of anything.

But a few hundred thousand people aren't going to have the reach to effect billions of women!

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I would hope that experienced staff and tbh any person can recognise inappropriate behaviour long before it escalates into assault, in most cases.

It's not an ideal situation is it, it's about doing our best to keep people safe. Do people really think someone dressed and living completely as a woman, taking female hormones, feminising their appearance, is going to be safe in single sex male environments? Because that's what I just can't get past.

With trans women in female spaces there's a risk of harm. With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.[/quote]
Well don't you think they should be concentrating on fixing that? Why is our issue to fix?

The reason I thought it was unusual and reassuring that these two girls realised they are not boy, was that children are being literally told, online, by schools, by charities etc that they can change sex and that TW literally are women and TM literally are men. The fact that trans people are being given access to sex segregated categories and spaces shows that policy and law makers are accepting this even though it's nonsense. Also, people have been losing their jobs for questioning this "truth". And many parents on MN have described conversations with their DC where their DC are literally convinced you are what you say you are and you literally are the opposite sex if you say you are.

That's why it's heartening that these girls don't seem to think that. Because many people do - or are being forced into saying they do for fear of losing their jobs.

@TheFairPrincess

But a few hundred thousand people aren't going to have the reach to effect billions of women!

Does anyone really think the world works like this?

Literally dozens of people have power over billions.

With trans women in male spaces it's almost guaranteed.

Where's the evidence for this?

Women here are talking about harms to women naming cases, prosecutions, evidence.

Where are the named cases and prosecutions for harm to TW in male spaces?