I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

I'm sorry I'm doing my best there are a lot of replies lol

TheFairPrincess

Attack helicopter? What has the RAF got to do with this thread? Are transgendered personnel infringing on the rights of women in the air forces?

The word you're looking for OP is 'lesbian'.

@TheFairPrincess

Right but the situations in which trans women and women need to be treated distinctly are few. In most cases of everyday life this is not necessary.

But this comes back to how your express your personality doesn't alter biological reality. A bloke that likes to perform at what he perceives as a woman via sexist stereotypes is still male. Females should not be required to accommodate him at all in any kind of space even at a day to day level. It's up to males to accommodate him in male spaces. Males should have to make space for and accommodate other males who may not express themselves in a traditional male way.

1. Not my circus, not my monkeys
2. Someone's right to swing their arms ends with point they connect with someone else's nose (thanks to the PP who said this, sums up the way I feel about it perfectly)

@TheFairPrincess

Ah here we go, the attack helicopter argument. I'm sorry I'm absolutely not going to engage in any transphobic straw man arguments.

To be clear I'm still interested in the rest of the conversation, just not the "I identify as a thunderbird lol" stuff.

Earlier you seemed unaware of the current political context around trans identities, single sex provision and self id.

I am surprised someone without that context would be familiar with tropes like "attack helicopter".

I think you may not be engaging in good faith.

@TheFairPrincess

But in the context it's being asked in that is untrue. I'm not a trans woman, you're not asking a trans person for their experience. You are saying it rhetorically. Which contradicts the earlier assertion that it's not about denying the existence of trans identity.

Gender identity is subjective and unfalsifiable but it can only exist in relation to sex, therefore it only makes sense if sex is objective and fixed. Which is now also being undermined.

Gender identity is similar to belief in a soul.

For some their gender is their truth irrespective of their sex and this is a deeply held belief.

I do not share this belief and it is not denying the existence of their trans identity. I accept it is real to them, but I am not obliged to go along with it any more than I would be obliged to believe wafer is the body of christ. A persons experience and lived reality is completely irrelevant.

In addition it is unfalsifiable both ways. Anyone can claim a subjective gender identity for any reason and it can't be questioned.

It is not possible compel someone to share the belief. You can ask them to lie/pretend/ go along with it for kindness. But at the moment women are being coerced and bullied into going along with it.

Can you not see where this leads,? What is already happening?

For the benefit of this discussion, can anyone please post pictures of biological males, who say they’re trans but dress in men’s clothes and have a beard please?

Gregor Murray and Edward Lord spring to mind first.

@TheFairPrincess

Conversely transwomen act as though they’re the same as us (biological women). A proportion of them say they are the real women and are just non men using phrases such as ‘welcome to your erasure’ and threatening to rape and murder us. They gain access to our spaces, post videos of themselves wanking in our toilets and rape crisis centres, rape and assault women in prisons.

Why are you not hurt by this sensitive issue as a woman?

FWIW it would really confuse me and probably hurt me if someone thought I was a man!

What even if you were a man?

@Blibbyblobby

Do you think "designated toilets" occur in biology? That sex-segregated spaces, in and of themselves, are anything but a part of society's gender norms?

Now this one is a good question and it's worth unpicking.

They are indeed a part of society's gender norms, but not because society just capriciously decided sometimes we would separate people by their physical sex.

Leaving aside those that exist entirely due to physical differences (sports, contraception, maternity leave, different toilet types, clothing shapes and sizes), women-only spaces, rights, protections and opportunities reflect society's gender norms to the extent that they were put in place to mitigate the social gender norms that allowed male-bodied people to physically, spatially, socially, culturally and politically overpower female-bodied people.

They are a reaction not a cause.

And those male-benefitting gender norms were not themselves one thing but the combination of physical power, historic laws that explicitly disempowered female people, cultural norms that associated male voices with more knowledge, trust and authority than female, socialisation of males to compete and females to defer, imagery of females as passive prizes and plot devices and males as subjects and agents, and so on.

So absolutely, I would welcome a future where female-only provision is no longer needed because the old, sex-aligned social gender norms that they protect us from have genuinely gone away. That, after all, is what Gender Critical Feminism is working towards. And if that's what your vision of a gender-norm free future is the same we should be gladly holding hands and marching towards it together side by side.

But if your vision of a gender-norm free future is simply to ignore the historic and ongoing disempowerment of female people, dismantle all single sex protections in order to make them a multi-sex validation of self-defined of gender identity, and through that somehow all those pre-existing sex-based gender norms that disadvantage female people and made single-sex provision necessary in the first place will magically go away without you ever having to tackle the difficult and real underlying problem of how males (of any gender identity) feel entitled to treat females.... no thank you.

What a good post. Applause!

*and we are just non women

@QueenPeary the attack helicopter argument is a reductive and mocking response to the notion that one identifies as transgender. It's basically making a mockery of the idea of identifying as something you are physically not.

The reason I hate to engage is because it's offensive and stupid. You cannot identify in any meaningful way as an "attack helicopter". Being a person of a certain sex is an actual thing, and do the the concept of gender construct, there is also a way to be socially perceived as a certain gender, even if you are not of the correlating biological sex.

The "Oh well I identify as a teapot" line is used to belittle the lived reality of trans people and by extension takes the piss out of their very real potential gender dysphoria. I do not appreciate it and I don't feel like I should be made to feel like not discussing it is a sign of weakness on my part.

@TheFairPrincess I can only assume that you are new to this debate as you seem to be unaware of many of the issues women are facing regarding single sex spaces.

A short (incomplete) list -

• the recent MOJ court case brought by a woman who, as an inmate in prison, was raped by a transwoman inmate. See also - Karen White, the influx of transwomen inmates being transferred to the women's estate in California prisons, the prison situation in Limerick.
• the loss of female only spaces (mandated under exceptions in the Equality Act 2010), in particular rape crisis centres. Edinburgh Rape Crisis have 'women only' spaces for women who are traumatised after being raped, but these spaces include transwomen. During the 'six words' amendment debate in the Scottish Parliament, it was argued by politicians that rape survivors should not be able to request to be examined by someone of their own sex.
• the chilling effect where women stating that there are two sexes and that sex is immutable have been deleted from social media platforms, fired from employment, doxxed, deplatformed. Academics have been silenced. Consider the reaction to JKR's essay detailing her experiences as a domestic and sexual violence survivors.
• the disgraceful treatment of lesbians who are under serious pressure to accept transwomen as sexual partners. See also - the loss of lesbian only spaces such as Michfest.

There is an institutional push to reframe single sex spaces as single gender spaces. Stonewall are a huge influential organisation who are actively pushing for this.

This isn't women being ridiculous. Women's rights are under serious attack.

This thread is an invaluable resource - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

@TheFairPrincess

What assertion? How is someone else supposed to prove how they feel? Is there an objective way I can prove I love my children? It's a feeling, like sexuality. How does one prove their sexuality? Performatively.

It doesn't actually matter how non trans people view a trans persons views on their own identity. The same way it's non of my business if you are gay.

Well quite.

But now ponder the question of single sex spaces like prison cells, women's refuges.

Stop embroidering the edges of this. Have a look at the substance of the debate.

Transwomen are transwomen, born male. The vast majority have body modification that stops at the face and chest.

Now, stop being aghast and seriously consider how far that 'feel like a woman' should take any man.

Into a women's refuge?
Into the female estate?
Into a job providing intimate care for someone who has specifically requested a female?

How far are you prepared to play along with the social niceties of TWAW?

I'm a scientist, I spend a lot of time in a lab coat, so you can't really see my clothes. My hair is always tied back and I don't tend to wear make up. If I were in a lab with a man, and somebody was sent up to speak to "Rebecca", they're always going to come to me, even if the man also has a ponytail.
But they're not basing your identity on your appearance
The point is that people instinctively know what sex another person is. If you want to claim that this instinctive knowledge is erroneous, you need to come up with someone more solid than "I just feel it inside".

@Mummyoflittledragon

You still haven’t answered my question about how hormones alter biological sex *@HexedBoogie*

You keep on saying. But how?

Look up the effects hormones have on the body.

For the benefit of this discussion, can anyone please post pictures of biological males, who say they’re trans but dress in men’s clothes and have a beard please? I don’t mean Alex Drummond. I’m a bit useless with names. I know there are some.

What's wrong with Alex Drummond? Poor Alex.

I can give you a Danielle Muscato. This is one of the approved publicity shots on Danielle's website.

Danielle Muscato is a civil-rights activist, public speaker, debater, writer, podcast host, pundit, and transgender woman from the United States. She has appeared on various national news media including CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, NPR, and many others representing progressive political and social perspectives.

But if your vision of a gender-norm free future

Woah. I'm certainly not the one arguing for a gender norm free future. It's GC feminists who reject gender norms.

the social gender norms that allowed male-bodied people to physically, spatially, socially, culturally and politically overpower female-bodied people.

And my God are female bodied people knee deep in the overpowering right now on all fronts. The need for single sex spaces is demonstrated in how very, very easily policy and law has been leaned on and worked to the absolute benefit of male bodied people, and female bodied people end up on threads like this trying to stand up for their needs while being told their needs don't matter and they're not being kind.

I'm very confused. I googled transgender RAF, and found a Battlefield Helicopter pilot who came out as transgender.

Is that who you were referring to?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_Paige

Woah. I'm certainly not the one arguing for a gender norm free future. It's GC feminists who reject gender norms.

So sex-based stereotypes are progressive?

The point is that people instinctively know what sex another person is. If you want to claim that this instinctive knowledge is erroneous, you need to come up with someone more solid than "I just feel it inside".

But again this is based on the assumption that trans people have some kind of belief they are biologically the opposite sex. They don't think that!

@doublemonkey

The word you're looking for OP is 'lesbian'.

How so?

fairprincess, you were the first to bring up attack helicopters.

TheFairPrincess Sat 21-Aug-21 17:04:24
Ah here we go, the attack helicopter argument. I'm sorry I'm absolutely not going to engage in any transphobic straw man arguments.

I know why, you know why. Yet no one before you had mentioned them. So you were using "the attack helicopter argument" to refer to something else - presumably me raising identifying out of your race.

No you pretend you don't know what references to this have to do with anything?

We can see what we all wrote in earlier posts, including yours, you know.