I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

@Ereshkigalangcleg why don't you ask that question to the person who actually said that?

I never said they were progressive. I said they exist, and probably always will, due to the nature of aesthetic appeal.

But again this is based on the assumption that trans people have some kind of belief they are biologically the opposite sex. They don't think that!

So the ones that say they think that are lying?

I don't necessarily believe this is intentional, but misgendering is in and of itself transphobic

oh right

Jessica Winfield raped 2 children

he's currently in HMP Bonzefield a women's prison. matches his gender identity, innit?

of course he's segregated now due to ‘making inappropriate advances’ to the female prisoners who were forced to live with him. one female prisoner one threatened to self-harm to get away from him

you cool with that very concrete example of what happens under your belief system @TheFairPrincess ?

am I misgendering poor Jessica?

Fair, if I were a trans man, I probably wouldn't choose to call myself Rebecca though.

I do understand what you're saying, that often how we appear is how we're perceived — so perhaps some trans people feel they have to portray themselves in a more exaggerated stereotypical masculine/feminine manner to be sure people "get it right" and realise they're trans.

But I'm saying that if you take away the stereotypical gender trappings, people are extremely good at recognising sex, and will assume the woman is the one with smaller frame/heart shaped face/no Adam's apple — it isn't unfair, it's just what humans do! Because it tells us who we can reproduce with, who might be able to overpower us etc.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

For the benefit of this discussion, can anyone please post pictures of biological males, who say they’re trans but dress in men’s clothes and have a beard please?

Gregor Murray and Edward Lord spring to mind first.

Both identify as nonbinary, I believe. Alex Drummond is a transwoman, as far as I'm aware. Also, Danielle Muscato in the US is a very vocal transwoman who initially at least appeared to be making very little effort to pass as a woman in terms of dress and removing facial hair.

@TheFairPrincess

Agreed. The problem is that many TRAs insist that there should be no cases where women and transwomen are treated differently due to their different sex

Right, and if there is this rhetoric in any position of power (and not just on twitter) then I'm sure there will be public discourse.

Debating the very idea of being transgender is a different matter though.

I'll refer you to a very recent legal decision, hotly discussed here, that found that transwomen must be housed in the female estate if they ask to be, because 'the law'

That was in a court room, not in Twitter.

@QueenPeary I don't know what your last post means.

I addressed this. I was referring to the "Thunderbird" comment by a poster, not anything to do with race.

But again this is based on the assumption that trans people have some kind of belief they are biologically the opposite sex. They don't think that!

I think FairPrincess should fight it out with HexedBoogie while we all take a break.

"Non binary" is under the trans umbrella. They are to all intents and purposes trans and expect to be able to access the sex segregated facilities of their choice.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I should also clarify, I mean the act of misgendering is in and of itself transphobic. I agree that you do not have to personally believe in anything, but you will hurt people by choosing to misgender them.

I guess that poses some significant problems then really. Because if I can't organise politically for my own sex-based rights as a woman without stating that they are male, then that's not really going to work for me.

Define "sex-based rights". What exactly are you organizing for, besides sex segregation?

there is also a way to be socially perceived as a certain gender, even if you are not of the correlating biological sex.

How?

But I'm saying that if you take away the stereotypical gender trappings, people are extremely good at recognising sex, and will assume the woman is the one with smaller frame/heart shaped face/no Adam's apple — it isn't unfair, it's just what humans do! Because it tells us who we can reproduce with, who might be able to overpower us etc

Absolutely, of course we are. That's why trans people dress in stereotypically masculine or feminine ways. It makes them feel more at home in their gender and it gives us the social cues to address them as male or female.

I would never in general life see a person in a frilly skirt and lipstick with long hair and call them "sir" for example. I worked years in retail and this absolutely does happen and these people want to be addressed as the gender they present as.

@GregTransphobia really? Is that a real question?

Can you just read some of my other posts? I've made that point several times now.

@HexedBoogie
Look up the effects hormones have on the body

I am well aware of the changes, which occur when someone takes cross sex hormones and puberty blockers.

Which components of biological sex do these hormones alter? I can’t see any.

Being a person of a certain sex is an actual thing, and do the the concept of gender construct, there is also a way to be socially perceived as a certain gender, even if you are not of the correlating biological sex.

So is being a person of a certain race. So why isn't that OK?

I could do a number of social, cultural and physical things to try to appear as / identify as black, despite not being black. I didn't bring up attack helicopters initially, you did. I brought up race. I'd like to know why that's not fine - especially as I have a lot more genetically in common with a black woman than I do with a man of my own race.

I am hoping you'll answer this with a clear explanation, because oddly enough no-one trying to defend transgenderism who I've asked ever has.

@TheFairPrincess

Ah here we go, the attack helicopter argument. I'm sorry I'm absolutely not going to engage in any transphobic straw man arguments.

To be clear I'm still interested in the rest of the conversation, just not the "I identify as a thunderbird lol" stuff.

This is usually done in a way intended to ridicule, however it isn't a strawman, it is absolutely central.

It is an illustration that it is subjective and therefore unfalsifiable and thereore open to abuse from people who claim an identity because it is advantageous.

But again this is based on the assumption that trans people have some kind of belief they are biologically the opposite sex. They don't think that!

Except our new young friend HexedBoogie claims to believe that in this very thread.

@TheFairPrincess

Where have you been for the last few years? Did you not see any of the consultations about self-ID? The Scottish and Welsh governments are determined to go down this road, despite all the problems with self-ID which have been explained to them in the responses to the consultations.

Is it realistic to assume pre-emptively that this will result in chaos? Are they not basing this decision off of other countries who operate on self ID?

Like Ireland, you mean?

www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/top-stories/male-bodied-transgender-inmate-housed-with-women-prisoners/

Criminal defence lawyer Robert Purcell says that the Gender Recognition Act 2015 has placed the State in an impossible position with regard to transgender prisoners.

@QueenPeary I don't know why one is okay and the other isn't I don't have all the answers!

Also as I already said, I wasn't talking to you when I was talking about attack helicopters, it wasn't about you. I'm getting a lot of different replies.

I think what you're missing, Princess, is that we do not normally, in a secular & tolerant society, oblige people to affirm others' beliefs, which are at odds with their own.

The people with those beliefs are of course free to hold them, without being harassed or persecuted.

I live in a Muslim country. I'm an atheist. Do I go out of my way to holler at my baowab: 'oi Mohamed! It's all nonsense! Why are you praying? Absolute waste of time!'

No, because that would be thoroughly bloody rude, offensive & inappropriate.

Does Mohamed expect me to agree with his religious beliefs? Absolutely not. He would consider any such expectation to be rude & disrespectful to 'whatever my religious position is'.

& if I were obliged by the laws of the country to affirm my belief in Islam , I'd be uncomfortable with that. It is understood here that I'm not a Muslim.

So if a male person tells me they identify as a woman, again, I'm not likely to prance up to them making a point of saying 'Yeah you're a bloke though.' No need.

But if it matters - if they are seeking access to a women only space, sure, I'll say 'But that's for female people & you aren't female.'

It's not misgendering, it's accurately sexing, because as you've acknowledged upthread, sex is real & immutable.

Which is now enough to get me arrested in Scotland, for example.

I addressed this. I was referring to the "Thunderbird" comment by a poster, not anything to do with race.

Ah OK, I searched for attack/helicopter to see who had raised it. and had missed the thunderbird post. Thanks for explainng.

@TheFairPrincess

The point is that people instinctively know what sex another person is. If you want to claim that this instinctive knowledge is erroneous, you need to come up with someone more solid than "I just feel it inside".

But again this is based on the assumption that trans people have some kind of belief they are biologically the opposite sex. They don't think that!

Really? Debbie Hayton (a transwoman) was accused of hate speech for wearing a t-shirt which says she is biologically a man.www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/22/transgender-woman-accused-hate-speech-wearing-t-shirt-stating/ I believe she's taken a lot of abuse from TRA's for saying so. There's apparently a word (truscum) for transwomen who are aware of the fact they are still biologically male.

I've seen a transwoman on here being attacked by a TRA for saying that she was aware she is biologically male.

@NecessaryScene

For the benefit of this discussion, can anyone please post pictures of biological males, who say they’re trans but dress in men’s clothes and have a beard please? I don’t mean Alex Drummond. I’m a bit useless with names. I know there are some.

What's wrong with Alex Drummond? Poor Alex.

I can give you a Danielle Muscato. This is one of the approved publicity shots on Danielle's website.

Danielle Muscato is a civil-rights activist, public speaker, debater, writer, podcast host, pundit, and transgender woman from the United States. She has appeared on various national news media including CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, NPR, and many others representing progressive political and social perspectives.

@TheFairPrincess

This person says they’re a woman. I thought you said transwomen dress in clothes, which are stereotypical of women so they don’t get misgendered and so forth. Where’s the dress, heels and lipstick here? And can you really not see where this is all leading?

Thanks Necessary

It is an illustration that it is subjective and therefore unfalsifiable and thereore open to abuse from people who claim an identity because it is advantageous

There are other ways to make that point, like saying exactly what you've just said, without being mocking.

That is an absolute valid point, I just wish it wasn't always served with a huge side of transphobia.

Define "sex-based rights". What exactly are you organizing for, besides sex segregation?

The right for women to not face discrimination and harassment on the grounds of our sex, which supposedly we already have.

What I'd like strengthened - Rights for women to have privacy and dignity and to be treated with respect in situations where they are vulnerable such as hospital, prison, refuge, secure unit, receiving intimate care. Right to monitor inequality in relation to males by the collection of sex disaggregated data. Many many things.