I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

I honestly agree with this except I would disagree with the fact that we do not in society request further justification or explanation already.

Which is of course right, because of course, any situation like this could result in opportunists taking advantage of the idea of ID allowing one who identifies as the opposite gender access to spaces intended for that gender.

Where have you been for the last few years? Did you not see any of the consultations about self-ID? The Scottish and Welsh governments are determined to go down this road, despite all the problems with self-ID which have been explained to them in the responses to the consultations.

Again, basing someone's identity on their appearance is unfair. The fact that a trans man appears masculine is a conscious effort to mirror their inner feelings of gender identity. It is performative, but the root of the performance is deeper.

But why does it matter what someone's identity is other than to that person. I'm a woman and I get mistaken as a man all of the time. This doesn't bother me, nor do I feel the need to perform on a feminine way to avoid this. I know what sex I am and perceived as that sex isn't important.

If a transman knows that they are a man why does it matter if other people dont see that?

Taking exception to thought-policing, language-policing and losing my rights is not transphobia. The TRA / extreme genderist lobby is making this demands, but I don't object because I'm transphobic, but because they are unreasonable demands, based on poor arguments and lies.

If I was transphobic, I would hate all trans people, but I don't. I support and agree with many trans people on these issues.

There is genuine, bigoted, aggressive transphobia - it exists. But those type of people were always like that - whereas the feminists fighting for womens rights are generally lefty, often lesbian, and liberal types who have no interest in attacking trans people for the sake of it.

The line that defending sex-based rights, thinking sex exists and matters and that you can't change sex is "transphobic" is an attempt to silence feminist by painting them as bigots, while paying far less attention to actual bigots.

@OldCrone

I honestly agree with this except I would disagree with the fact that we do not in society request further justification or explanation already.

Which is of course right, because of course, any situation like this could result in opportunists taking advantage of the idea of ID allowing one who identifies as the opposite gender access to spaces intended for that gender.

Where have you been for the last few years? Did you not see any of the consultations about self-ID? The Scottish and Welsh governments are determined to go down this road, despite all the problems with self-ID which have been explained to them in the responses to the consultations.

Quite.

No one could miss the fact that this is being discussed in papers across the land, unless they live in a cave.

So it's just wilful disregard, or 'can't be arsed' ignorance.

TheFairPrincess men can now be legal women, without any medical modification to themselves whatsoever.

This means, that legally, Parliament could be made up of 100% men, with half being men who identify as men, and half men who identify as women. And it would tick the sex diversity box.

Indeed, there are many politicians who completely agree with it.

You appear to be conflating sex and gender a lot. The two are not the same and it makes quite hard reading when we dont know which you mean on each occasion

You're right, sorry. I will make an effort to be more diligent as it can change the meaning of what I am saying. I hope it's clear overall though that I believe in a distinct binary biological sex and a separate gender identity based in a more social context.

I should also clarify, I mean the act of misgendering is in and of itself transphobic. I agree that you do not have to personally believe in anything, but you will hurt people by choosing to misgender them.

I'm not asking a transwoman about socially created gender constructs, I'm asking you. So no vitriol on my part.

Absolutely I did not mean to imply you were being vitriolic, but also that was kind of my point. Addressing that question to trans women is just not really appropriate unless invited and is also kind of irrelevant.

For me women and men can wear whatever the fuck they want, lipstick, shorts skirts, boiler suits, suit,tie, bowler hat. Zero fucks given but still clothing does not make a sex, I wear no lipstick ever, I've been seen in a dress 3 times in my life, I live in mens Jean's, shorts and tshirts. Yet I don't feel any need to call myself a man.
So clothing changes nothing

Totally people should be able to dress how they want and we should only encourage a less gendered identity for clothing.

But, somewhat conversely, my point was not that the dress maketh the woman when it comes to transwomen, my point that I've tried to say is that transwomen to not believe they are a woman because they wear dresses. They wear dressed to be perceived as women in a society that considers dresses associated with women. I don't think that is too hard to empathise with. I do not think you will ever hear a transwoman say that their identity does not go much deeper than appearance or clothes preference. It is a symptom, not the cause.

All I'm saying is, while I agree TRAs are very scary and threatening, and their ideology is also, I do not feel it is representative of the large majority of trans people, nor do I believe that society and law is not aware that that kind of thinking is unrealistic and potentially harmful.

I don't think it is representative of the large majority of trans people either. Self-id is, however, the position of most of our mainstream political parties, the largest trans rights lobbying groups, the position that is coming to dominate social and mainstream media, the position that is being enacted in schools, prisons and many other public/state-provided arenas and the one that Stonewall are putting enormous reputational pressure on large and public employers to adopt.

JK Rowling said pretty much what you have said above, and because of that she has received rape and death threats, and in many sections of society the belief that "JKF is a transphobe" has become an accepted fact.

@Jaysmith71

When I was in Year 6, I was Thunderbird 1.

Who wouldn’t want to be a thunderbird.

Indeed, there are many politicians who completely agree with it.

As they cravenly said at the Fawcett Society's "Ask Her to Stand" event about increasing female representation in politics.

He's an Alsatian table and she has issues

I love mumsnet.

*But why does it matter what someone's identity is other than to that person. I'm a woman and I get mistaken as a man all of the time. This doesn't bother me, nor do I feel the need to perform on a feminine way to avoid this. I know what sex I am and perceived as that sex isn't important.

If a transman knows that they are a man why does it matter if other people dont see that?*

Because it's hurtful to them to be misgendered. Identity is not expressed in a vacuum. I think it actively is important and cathartic to trans people to be gendered correctly.

Where have you been for the last few years? Did you not see any of the consultations about self-ID? The Scottish and Welsh governments are determined to go down this road, despite all the problems with self-ID which have been explained to them in the responses to the consultations.

Is it realistic to assume pre-emptively that this will result in chaos? Are they not basing this decision off of other countries who operate on self ID?

I should also clarify, I mean the act of misgendering is in and of itself transphobic. I agree that you do not have to personally believe in anything, but you will hurt people by choosing to misgender them.

I guess that poses some significant problems then really. Because if I can't organise politically for my own sex-based rights as a woman without stating that they are male, then that's not really going to work for me.

@Jaysmith71

Pardonnez-moi, Mummyoflittledragon

He's an Alsatian table and she has issues.

😂 You mean your table identifies as dog?

Une table d’alsace s’identifie comme un chien alsacien.

Yup perfectly plausible…

Because it's hurtful to them to be misgendered. Identity is not expressed in a vacuum. I think it actively is important and cathartic to trans people to be gendered correctly.

If someone's internal sense of self relies on other people validating them by lying then there is an issue.

misgendering is in and of itself transphobic.

I've been mis-sexed a number of times, I didn't mind. I understand that at first glance as I'm tall with short hair and often not very feminine clothes, people might think I'm a man. They usually correct themselves soon after when they see me more closely or hear me. Whatever. I don't care because I know I'm a woman.

The concept of "misgendering" actually means "not being accurate about what I choose to believe about myself despite the fact that it may not even be obvious". That's unreasonable. Recognising someone's sex and thinking someone is that sex is a normal and natural human behaviour - and has nothing to do with gender - so if someone does that, it's not misgendering, but correctly sexing.

Unless you think gender does actually equal sex? But then what would "trans" mean?

Demanding that someone's speech and beliefs follows your own belief system is totalitarian, controlling and unreasonable. It's no different from if I said you have to call me black when I'm white and then called transrace-phobia if you didn't.

Or if you think it is different, why?

@TheFairPrincess

Where have you been for the last few years? Did you not see any of the consultations about self-ID? The Scottish and Welsh governments are determined to go down this road, despite all the problems with self-ID which have been explained to them in the responses to the consultations.

Is it realistic to assume pre-emptively that this will result in chaos? Are they not basing this decision off of other countries who operate on self ID?

Hang on, didn't you just say you are sure there will be additional controls in place to stop just anyone identifying as any gender? How does that line up with accepting self ID?

Ah here we go, the attack helicopter argument. I'm sorry I'm absolutely not going to engage in any transphobic straw man arguments.

To be clear I'm still interested in the rest of the conversation, just not the "I identify as a thunderbird lol" stuff.

I agree that you do not have to personally believe in anything, but you will hurt people by choosing to misgender them.

There is a difference between wilfully and intentionally refusing to acknowledge someone's chosen identity in a 1:1 situation - although this courtesy obviously needs to be reciprocal - and a situation in which women are forced, in order to make their case, to be clear that there is a difference between biologically male and female people, and TW are male. This is a fact. When a TW enters a female only space it has become mixed sex.

Not all female people are able to use mixed sex spaces.

If women are not supposed to mention this (or the prison rapes, or the women staying in life threatening situations because they can't go to refuges or the raped women unable to accept any medical examination or the women who can no longer find any public loos, or the lesbians with no groups left) because it's too hurtful to people born male.............?

What would you like them to do?

Who made the attack helicopter argument and where?

But that would come down to the person's feelings. Again, basing someone's identity on their appearance is unfair.

But people do this all the time!

I'm a scientist, I spend a lot of time in a lab coat, so you can't really see my clothes. My hair is always tied back and I don't tend to wear make up. If I were in a lab with a man, and somebody was sent up to speak to "Rebecca", they're always going to come to me, even if the man also has a ponytail.

The concept of "misgendering" actually means "not being accurate about what I choose to believe about myself despite the fact that it may not even be obvious"

Of course that's what it means! It might not be hurtful to you, but you are not transgender, so I doubt it would be a very sensitive issue for you. People always act like trans people are exactly like us and that if they have the ability to present as the other gender they must be completely comfortable with themselves. Really not the case.

FWIW it would really confuse me and probably hurt me if someone thought I was a man!

For the benefit of this discussion, can anyone please post pictures of biological males, who say they’re trans but dress in men’s clothes and have a beard please? I don’t mean Alex Drummond. I’m a bit useless with names. I know there are some.

Are they not basing this decision off of other countries who operate on self ID?

In much the same way the proverbial lemming bases its decision off of other lemmings running off the cliff, I guess.

Although, if you think a man can reasonably expect to be called a woman but not a different race, a rabbit, a teapot or indeed an attack helicopter, you need to explain why

"Oh I won't engage with that" isn't defending your argument.

If you genuinely think IDing as the opposite sex makes sense, but you can't ID as a different race, height, age, species etc etc whatever - why?

If you can't answer that, then your position looks weak. Because it's not at all obvious why to me.

@BlazeAway

But that would come down to the person's feelings. Again, basing someone's identity on their appearance is unfair.

But people do this all the time!

I'm a scientist, I spend a lot of time in a lab coat, so you can't really see my clothes. My hair is always tied back and I don't tend to wear make up. If I were in a lab with a man, and somebody was sent up to speak to "Rebecca", they're always going to come to me, even if the man also has a ponytail.

But they're not basing your identity on your appearance. I think the context of that comment I think was I was saying how you can't equate someones erm. "transness" with their appearance in that you can't assume to limit their transness to their appearance.