I found this slightly reassuring - re girls IDing as boys

[QueenPeary]

Until recently despite engaging in the gender debate a lot and having a VERY full-on TRA family member, I hadn't had much direct experience of trans-IDing children.

But recently 2 of my DD's female classmates (year 6), one a close friend, have started IDing as boys, have boys names etc and this is being embraced by the school. My DD knows my GC views and we discuss it, but I have agreed to be respectful in using the right names etc (though I avoid using he pronouns).

Anyway - what I found reassuring is that both have discussed it with my DD and said they know they are not actually boys, and are not interested in taking drugs or having a penis. So despite the school being captured and going along with the full TWAW/TMAM etc, the kids (sometimes) aren't. They seem to realise it's an identity to try on, akin to a fashion or music tribe, and so maybe - I hope - there's a way in which girls (and maybe boys too) can go through this without it having to involve the long-term risks to their health.

I still don't think they are a "he" and I don't think it's going down a very healthy or feminist path to ID as a boy instead of just being a girl of whatever type you want to be. But I am kind of heartened that maybe this trend could default back to something more akin to good old 80s "gender bending" and away from the idea of actually changing sex.

Of course many kids still are at risk of both harmful medicalisation and anti-science ideology and I'm not minimising that – but wondered what people thought.

@HexedBoogie Your posts are such a gift to highlight the delusions and flaws of this strange world view.

If I hadn't been arguing on twitter with someone who also believes you can define man/woman/male and female with out reference to objective criteria at any point, I simply wouldn't believe anyone could be this illogical.

By your rationale, their is only gender identity/subjective identification with sex, but sex doesn't exist as a static thing...so there is no sex.

Sex is subjective/fluid. That being the case, what are you identifying with. Can I identify as a trans woman.

Is this is also true for penguins?

Hypothetically, If I experimented on a "cis" woman (who doesn't feel trans) gave her homones, a double masectomy and crafted her a pseudophallus. would that make her the opposite sex??? Would that make her trans?? -she identified as a woman but has now "changed sex"

A concept has to have an anchor at some point.

But in the context it's being asked in that is untrue. I'm not a trans woman, you're not asking a trans person for their experience. You are saying it rhetorically. Which contradicts the earlier assertion that it's not about denying the existence of trans identity.

@TheFairPrincess

Those things do matter! But you just can't generalise every person of an already marginalised group into the same category. There is a word for that.

Women as a sex class are a marginalised group.

Can you not see where #bekind is leading you?

@TheFairPrincess

Agreed. The problem is that many TRAs insist that there should be no cases where women and transwomen are treated differently due to their different sex

Right, and if there is this rhetoric in any position of power (and not just on twitter) then I'm sure there will be public discourse.

Debating the very idea of being transgender is a different matter though.

I take it you don't live in Scotland or Wales.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4328119-SNP-Green-deal-to-bring-in-gender-reform-bill-in-first-year-of-parliament

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4324416-Welsh-Government-Transgender-people-are-people-who-are-born-as-one-sex-but-are-the-other-sex

Toilets, change rooms, prisons, hospital wards, refuges, all spaces where natal females do not want to be forced to share with natal males.

TheFairPrincess

It looks like you might have waded into this without having the smallest clue about where we are in terms of the law.

It's now perfectly legal for violent, convicted rapists to be sent to women's prisons. For male sex offenders to access female rape refuges. For medical wards and psychiatric wards to be mixed sex as a matter of course and anyone objecting is the person who is the problem.

Males can compete as females in sport. And have just done so in the Olympics. Please google Laurel Hubbard. And Karen White whilst you're at it. A Convicted rapist and paedophile who assaulted the incarcerated women he was given access to as part of his sentence.

@Jaysmith71

This all comes from linguistics. Gender is just a category system. The choice of masculine, feminine and neuter to denote linguistic gender was arbitary. It could just as easily have been black and white or feline and canine or whatever.

As you learn in basic French, the fact that the table is masculine does not mean the table is male.

I totally with you in your analogy.

But just wanted to point out that in French is feminine. In German it is masculine. Poor thing must have an identity crisis.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@GreyhoundG1rl I take them at their word that they, being fellow humans who live in a gendered world, are able to recognise their own feelings on this. How am I supposed to explain it? More importantly, why is it so necessary for transwomen to justify their innermost feelings and psychology around their gender identity? Who knows (or cares) the root cause of this, the same way I couldn't care less why someone is gay.

The constant demand for explanation of "what it feels like to be trans" is really perplexing to me.[/quote]
It matters because it's not just about how someone describes themselves, but the fact that their subjective understanding of their self is used to justify access to provisions that were set up for the opposite sex without further justification or explanation.

We only care about how people feel inside to the degree that they ask us to rearrange society to accommodate that feeling.

When people like me who are entirely in favour of gender-non-conformity ask genderists to define what this "identifying as a man" or "identifying as a woman" means in a objective, external sense it's not because we want to attack someone's sense of who they are, it's because we want to understand what the shared characteristics of men and women are such that they need gender-specific provision like toilets, sports, political roles or whatever.

I think at that point, it's reasonable to ask what the thing that is being accommodated actually is, or at least, define some material shared commonalities of the group that can be objectively perceived so that society has some basis on which to work out how to properly accommodate it.

But all we ever get is circular definitions (you identify with a label because you identify with a label) or statements of what trans identities are not : not gender stereotypes, not biology, not dysphoria, not internalised homophobia, not dissociation after trauma, not a paraphilia, not being the other label....

But you can't give someone what they need simply based on what they are not. (Although it is a very handy way to control the debate and reject anything concrete that is suggested).

What I can't accept is the current attitude of "oh don't mind us, you don't need to do anything special for us, we'll just take anything labelled as Women's, the existing women won't mind, at least not the ones that matter".

@thirdfiddle I would agree with you but argue that perfomatively living as a man is an expression of a trans man's identity. Of course it's based on gender construct but how else does one expect somebody to express that?

Trans people will say they have a brain of the opposite sex ("gender") to their biological sex. I've heard them say it, I've asked them questions about it and I'm not convinced. How many more people should I talk to? It's just not something I believe. I know there are people who believe they are the opposite sex. I just don't agree with them. It's that simple.

Surely, puberty blockers stop the hormones etc. that could lead a boy or girl to realise they are actually comfortable in their own body?!

If Trans was such a big thing when I was a kid, I'm sure I would have believed I was meant to be a boy and pushed to transition through my GP. However, I'm thoroughly happy in my life and so pleased I didn't go down an irreversible life choice.

Pardonnez-moi, Mummyoflittledragon

He's an Alsatian table and she has issues.

What women only space?

Changing rooms where I don't want to see a penis or feel unnerved by a male being nearby who could rape me, and where some women will feel unable to go at all knowing males are allowed in

Sports categories where women will no longer be contenders at all because male-bodied people will dominate, if they are opens up to transwomen

Prison wards - women are being RAPED. Can you really not see why that should be a woman only space?

Hospital wards. Because I'd like to sleep knowing that anyone who just said he's a woman can't come in and lie next to me. Because what kind of person would do that? Can you not see how that will be abused?

And, in fact, just anything - like a woman-only paddleboarding weekend I didn't book when I saw it meant anyone who IDs as a woman. Not because I hate transwomen and want to upset them – but because there is a camaraderie and community from being with just women, because you can talk about the biological aspects of womanhood (which women often do - menopause, childbirth, etc), you can share experiences that men cannot understand, and if a male is there, you will have to be on your guard not to do that or be accused of not being inclusive or worse, and the kind of male that would want to be there for validation, will be the kind of male who will not give a shit about women's feelings, and ultimately it's not worth the bother. And that's all before you get to the simple fact that I will have a sense of apprehension being around a male and can relax more easily if I know it's female-only (and yes I am a victim of sexual abuse, but I defend any woman's right to be free of that apprehension).

I would agree with you but argue that perfomatively living as a man is an expression of a trans man's identity. Of course it's based on gender construct but how else does one expect somebody to express that?

But surely if someone feels of the other sex for reasons other than gender stereotypes they can express themself as that sex without using gender stereotypes. If their identity is not just about stereotypes then they could express the other aspects of that identity?

Men don't have to express masculinity to be seen as a man.

It matters because it's not just about how someone describes themselves, but the fact that their subjective understanding of their self is used to justify access to provisions that were set up for the opposite sex without further justification or explanation.

I honestly agree with this except I would disagree with the fact that we do not in society request further justification or explanation already.

Which is of course right, because of course, any situation like this could result in opportunists taking advantage of the idea of ID allowing one who identifies as the opposite gender access to spaces intended for that gender.

All I'm saying is, while I agree TRAs are very scary and threatening, and their ideology is also, I do not feel it is representative of the large majority of trans people, nor do I believe that society and law is not aware that that kind of thinking is unrealistic and potentially harmful.

Of course there are situations that have arisen that should not have happened. What I'm confused about is the conversation never seems to centre around these isolated events, but these events add fuel to an already well burning fire of a much more general and abstract transphobia.

I don't necessarily believe this is intentional, but misgendering is in and of itself transphobic.

Surely, puberty blockers stop the hormones etc. that could lead a boy or girl to realise they are actually comfortable in their own body?

That's one plausible scenario, yes.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

But that would come down to the person's feelings. Again, basing someone's identity on their appearance is unfair. The fact that a trans man appears masculine is a conscious effort to mirror their inner feelings of gender identity. It is performative, but the root of the performance is deeper.

@TheFairPrincess

But why are there socially created gender constructs?

As said above though I feel like it's aiming vitriol at the wrong group if you expect trans women to literally end gender constructs.

I'm a woman who wears dresses and red lipstick. Am I problematic or am I free to dress the way I choose?

If the latter, why does it become offensive to dress that way when it is a trans woman but not as a cis woman?

Is it not possible to agree that we all live under patriarchal constructs and that gender stereotypes are a real if not desirable part of society?

Furthermore, is it even desirable to remove gender as a social construct if we can instead move past inequality?

I'm not asking a transwoman about socially created gender constructs, I'm asking you. So no vitriol on my part.

For me women and men can wear whatever the fuck they want, lipstick, shorts skirts, boiler suits, suit,tie, bowler hat. Zero fucks given but still clothing does not make a sex, I wear no lipstick ever, I've been seen in a dress 3 times in my life, I live in mens Jean's, shorts and tshirts. Yet I don't feel any need to call myself a man.
So clothing changes nothing.

You appear to be conflating sex and gender a lot. The two are not the same and it makes quite hard reading when we dont know which you mean on each occasion.

@TheFairPrincess

How much about this debate do you actually know about? Or have you heard MN is a den of transphobes who need to be educated to be kind?

Do you know that there are male rapists in prisons right now? Do you have an opinion on that or is that to be waved away?

Of course there are situations that have arisen that should not have happened. What I'm confused about is the conversation never seems to centre around these isolated events, but these events add fuel to an already well burning fire of a much more general and abstract transphobia.

Does that apply to talking about male violence in general? Is it misandry?

misgendering is in and of itself transphobic.

No more than a man calling himself a woman is in and of itself misogynistic.

I think they're both statements of that person's beliefs. Which may or may not be due to transphobia or misogyny. And it may be perceived as such even if not intended as such.

People do have to tolerate others beliefs in a secular society, even ones they find offensive.

I don't necessarily believe this is intentional, but misgendering is in and of itself transphobic

No it doesn't. Not believing what someone else believes doesn't mean you hate them. I don't hate flat earthers. I don't hate Christians. I don't hate transpeople. I just don't share their beliefs and can't be compelled to pretend that I do.

Are you arguing for equal care and kindness and consideration of female people's feelings and needs too? Or is this something only owed by female people to male people? Because it's a whole lot less about trans people as a whole than about the specific needs of female people to be able to have some spaces, sometimes, away from male people in order to meet female sex based needs. And for this to not depend on how male people feel about it.

Yes, the boundaries of women's rights sometimes mean being rude and unkind when nothing politer has been listened to. Do a little reading around on Twitter and look at how women are spoken to. The death threats, the rape threats, and women are unkind for pointing out the reality to explain - only because they HAVE to explain - that some female people are excluded when female only provisions are forced to mixed sex to benefit male people.

It cannot always and only be about the needs of trans people. Other people have needs and rights too. And no, women are not under contract to be too nice to say anything when their rights are being legally removed and some women really very seriously impacted by this. That's beyond sexist.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@thirdfiddle I would agree with you but argue that perfomatively living as a man is an expression of a trans man's identity. Of course it's based on gender construct but how else does one expect somebody to express that?[/quote]
It's gone way, way beyond how you accommodate someone with gender dysphoria.

Plus Gender dysphoria is entirely unnecessary to identify as transgender.

And gender dysphoria only exists because of sexist stereotypes that make a person feel they're the wrong sex.

But again, when it was just a handful, women weren't so concerned.

But now laws are changing, spaces have disappeared, and convicted rapists are assaulting female prisoners. This is not 'being kind'. It's rolling back women's rights hundreds of years.

Homosexuality doesn't exist. Stonewall can't define it. There are zero lesbian spaces left.

Lesbians and homosexual men are bigoted transphobes for having a 'genital fetish'. It's the 1950s all over again.

And if you think this is just Twitter, you couldn't be more wrong. It's in every school, every university across the land.

Try and find a lesbian space, online, or in real life, that is actually for women.