10yo Daughter wants to go to pride

[NeedDDadvice]

Deliberately posted on sex and gender topic. Please don't move

Yes, I name changed. I want advice free of my previous posts on Mumsnet. I am an old poster of the COD and Riven era!

My 10yo daughter who has pictures of all sorts of flags on her bedroom wall, asked me to take her to pride.

My response was yes, if I can find a family friendly one. She asked what might be inappropriate and I said men dressed in leather dog suits. We both laughed.

She doesn't have a label yet but is so interested in the pride flags.

She thinks that because I don't believe in gendering, that I am Transphobic. Which is ridiculous. As I pointed out if I don't believe in Christianity that doesn't make me Christianphobic.

All my children have been raised to look for evidence, to debate ideas, not to blindly fall into an ideology.

I am worried about this blind faith in trans and LGBT+. I believe in the Lesbian, Gay and Bi sexualities but the rest is personalities or gender woo woo.

She is very like me at that age wears so called boy clothes etc. I have been very clear that it doesn't matter what DD or my DS wears from any department. Clothes, haircuts mean nothing to me, as a 70's kid.

I don't want her to be sucked into gendering and lose the ability to debate and research the evidence and looking for the science and reality of the subject.

I will start to take her to any womens right march's locally and of course find the best family friendly pride event to attend as well.

How do I help her keep her mind working?

Ps. I said I didn't care if she brought a woman or a man home to meet us in the future but I would struggle not to lol if they quote a genderism label at me. (A joke, I will of course be very welcoming to any new member of our family)

You are trying to have a sophisticated argument with a child. If you go in too strong, this coukd really backfire on you. Instead of convincing her, I would take a step back and say 'this is what I believe and why'. That allows her room to think about your points more objectively. If she feels dominated or smothered by your opinions, she may well go in the opposite direction.

Why are you talking to her about men in doggy outfits???? It's almost like you think of her as an adult. Yes, kids grow up fact, but men in leather or doggy outfits shouldn't not be something you can knowingly or collectively laugh at with a 10 year old! There's something very wrong there.

What kind of school does she go to? Also, does she have access to Tumblr? Either at home or at her friends' houses? I wouldn't be surprised if the sudden interest in flags and Pride was due to that.

Unless she identifies with all of this for another reason, it sounds like she's interested in visual branding and symbolism. That's what all those flags are about - it's visual branding that companies , countries and most groups use the same method to create an identity for themselves. I'm nit sure if there are an age-appropriate books on the subject but you might want to have a look.

Yes, kids grow up fast, but men in leather or doggy outfits shouldn't be something you can knowingly or collectively laugh at with a 10 year old!

@trancepants Or...........they could just not go to Pride events until the kink displays go away. How it'a even legal to attract or allow children to attend such events it's beyond me. It's the sexualisation of children in plain sight and is a fab day out for paedophiles I'm sure.

People survive without going to every single carnival or festival. It's possible to grow up into being a non-homophobic adult without having attended any event like that. The organisers will probably try to tie some link between the two so they can increase their attendance figures, but it's not necessary or essential.

@grey12

That said, maybe Pride should be family friendly!!! they are in the street..... if you can't take your 10yo to it, what about the people who just happen to be walking down the street and didn't know there was a march going on?

I agree In Manchester for example you can find yourself in the middle of a Pride event at 2 in the after before you even realise what’s going on. Some of it is very inappropriate for children and in fact some adults might prefer not to see certain things either.

[quote SirenSays]@5zeds only if you're a bit of a muppet and don't do any worthwhile research. Surely as a parent you'd speak to other people that have attended, email the organisers, look up the thousands of photos and videos from previous years...[/quote]
@SirenSays I'd rather be a responsible adult and not let children attend events which have a strong link with puppy play or kink. As for emailing the organisers and doing that research, perhaps you could offer to do that for people as a free, charitable service?

Personally, I wouldn't bother. I'd rather play it safe when it comes to looking after children. Pretty sure the average country fair don't have kink puppies in the jam-making competition tent.

If that makes me a muppet then I'm happy to be one.

Also, had to laugh at the 'worthwhile research'. 😂

@EarthSight

Also, had to laugh at the 'worthwhile research'. 😂

Also can you imagine the response if you emailed the organisers? I am pretty sure it would include the words Bigot, Homophobe and plenty of other “phobes” It seems we have to accept everything

[quote EarthSight]@trancepants Or...........they could just not go to Pride events until the kink displays go away. How it'a even legal to attract or allow children to attend such events it's beyond me. It's the sexualisation of children in plain sight and is a fab day out for paedophiles I'm sure.

People survive without going to every single carnival or festival. It's possible to grow up into being a non-homophobic adult without having attended any event like that. The organisers will probably try to tie some link between the two so they can increase their attendance figures, but it's not necessary or essential.[/quote]
The point is there are many, many, many Pride events where the kink displays can't go away, because they never even started. Plenty of events run by people who know what is and isn't appropriate to be at an event they advertise as open for families to attend. How the actual hell does shunning the organisers and participants of well planned, thoughtful, often generous events get any message to the well meaning fools and those with suspicious agendas at completely different events?

Because that's what you are advocating. Shun people who have historically been shunned because some other people, in another city, who may share traits with them are doing something you don't like. This thread is really fucking messed up. It is exactly the kind of thing that TRAs will use to classify terfs as homophobes. Because honestly, there is a very, very fine line being walked here that is teetering into homophobic territory. Or at the very least into hysterical accusations about protecting children. Anyone who reads a thread like this and then goes to a perfectly normal family Pride event where their kids wave rainbow flags and spends the afternoon on a bouncy castle while young women hold hands on the grass. And everyone is happy and wholesome, are going to dismiss everything else anyone here has to say.

Maybe I should, if checking a fb page is too difficult for you. I mean I definitely believe you need some help reigning in since you do seem to love imagining things. Imaginary insulting emails and kink displays at the hundreds of events every year where there are none. Like a pp poster said it does seem like there's an agenda on here.

@SirenSays

Maybe I should, if checking a fb page is too difficult for you. I mean I definitely believe you need some help reigning in since you do seem to love imagining things. Imaginary insulting emails and kink displays at the hundreds of events every year where there are none. Like a pp poster said it does seem like there's an agenda on here.

No - you weren't just suggesting checking a Facebook page, were you? You were suggesting that women -

speak to other people that have attended, email the organisers, look up the thousands of photos and videos from previous years

Feel free to look up those thousands of photos and videos in your own time.

like a pp poster said it does seem like there's an agenda on here

Yes, I think we all see what the agenda is here - belittling the womenz who are worrying their pretty little heads about safeguarding and about things they have imagined.

Ok, @Earthsight, you've got me. I'm a Pride stall holding TRA terf-basher!!!! You gotcha-d me!

That's definitely far, far more likely than me being someone who has real and justified concerns about AGP men in women's spaces. Who knows too many abusive men will use 'inclusive' legislation to gain access to vulnerable women and children. Who is deeply concerned about the affirmation model leading to medical intervention on children which will almost certainly lead to lifelong negative physical consequences that they are not informed about. That even if they never feel a need to detransition, that their bone health and sexual organs are physically compromised. That their ability to have a satisfying sex life and to be honest to even find a partner will be severely compromised.

But while I have all of those concerns, I'm not willing to in any way whatsoever set back the rights and acceptance that lesbian women and gay men have achieved in the last 50 years. Even if those women and men haven't yet recognised that there is a strong possibility their existence and achievements are being high-jacked, by those with potentially worrisome intent. I'm not willing to let them be set back by one fucking iota if i can help it.

As women we all fucking know viscerally how society constantly manages to punish the victims. And if you can't see that that is exactly what is already happening to the gay community, that it is what is being fucking done by posters on here on this thread, then you are being wilfully ignorant and on some level just willing to engage in the same victim punishing.

Unfortunately society has not changed enough that Pride has stopped having a necessary function. Pride is still really important and necessary to people who constantly have to wonder if something at the essence of their being may cause them to be rejected or held at arms length. Those of us who have already recognised that some awful people are trying to/are using Pride to further their own pretty worrisome agendas, should be standing shoulder to shoulder with the people who Pride is for. Not abandoning them because they maybe haven't had the emotional distance or negative personal experiences yet to see it. And certainly not abandoning all of the Pride events where there is literally nothing problematic at all.

HoppingGreen Yes, I was visiting the science and industry museum one day and stepped outside one of the buildings to find it going by, I was enjoying the music and spectacle with my two children (under 5) for a bit until one particularly forthright participant locked eyes with me put his split fingers to his lips and mimed some very enthusiastic oral sex on a female at me, he wasn't being playful. Luckily the kids were oblivious but my thought was what a twat and it rather took the shine off things.

willing to engage in the same victim punishing.

Okey-dokey!

People or parents putting their children's welfare first is 'victim punishing'? I think you're the one who's wilfully ignorant.

Pride has been hijacked by transactivists and big companies all marching to prove their diversity. It's attended by fewer and fewer actual gay lesbian and bisexual people

Also @trancepants , protest at these concerns all you want. It's not going to make a difference to anyone here, and I stand by my scepticism regarding your use of 'terf' and 'hysterical'.

I agree with trancepants that this thread is quite sad, but it's also not remotely surprising given the direction the LGBT+ legacy orgs have been dragging us. The immediate suspicion of anything draped in rainbows is one reason why I'm nervous going out wearing a rainbow badge on my jacket. I still do it, because I know I'm not with the creepy kinksters, but I am not remotely surprised at the growing backlash and I absolutely blame the kinksters.

OP, she sounds like a 10 year old looking to make sense of the world and interested in the pretty flags and inclusivity messaging. That's a good thing. I wouldn't worry too much about Pride events, most of them still seem to be likely to be cancelled anyway. If she's interested in learning more, a site like www.positivelylesbian.org/lesbian-visibility/ might be good to look at together, but honestly, at 10, I would still be focusing on be open minded in general, asking questions and not spending that much time in the online spaces where she's picking up ideas where going to Pride seems like a goal.

TBH, Pride and any carnival thing is a draw, but perhaps encouraging her to channel her enthusiasm into being interested in fairness, because as much as LGB people love a party, we mostly value equal rights.

Sorry - for anyone else who's curious why there's no post to refer back to - I asked Mumsent to delete my previous post as I wanted to make an edit to it. They did take it down, but a bit too late.

I wanted to take out the part that said something like 'I'm sure you would agree with me that just because someone doesn't want to attend these events, that doesn't make them homophobic' (as it's possible to grow up into a non-homophobic adult without having attended anything like this. However, then I saw this gem, which kind of made my earlier sentence invalid -

Because honestly, there is a very, very fine line being walked here that is teetering into homophobic territory. Or at the very least into hysterical accusations about protecting children

To which I replied later in the post -

Don't be shy @trancepants . Just come right out and say it - women who have objections to attending Pride are homophobic and hysterical.....or do you realise how unfair, unempathic, ridiculous, patronising, sexist, manipulative and emotionally blackmailing that would sound?

@EarthSight

willing to engage in the same victim punishing.

Okey-dokey!

People or parents putting their children's welfare first is 'victim punishing'? I think you're the one who's wilfully ignorant.

No. Sorry, it's hard to accept this. But it is 100% what you are doing. I've been to a lot of Pride events that were advertised as family friendly. I have never once seen anything that is remotely unsuitable for children. Not once. The one and only time I was ever at an event advertised as a good time for children, which turned out to be deeply unsuitable and agenda pushing, it was an event run by an American extreme Christian group. I left very quickly once I realised who was running it, and it turned out to have been very much the right call, as evidenced by the upsetting descriptions that latter appeared in our local media. Anything at all can appear suitable for children and turn out to not be. Either because the organisers had a hidden agenda or because abusive people just show up. (Again, actually I've had the displeasure of running into "pro-life" protesters with graphic posters on city streets when I'm with my child.)

Claiming you are putting your children's welfare first and so avoiding all Pride events is both hysterical, victim punishing and quite frankly playing into TRA hands. Absolutely avoid Pride events where you know there is a bad history of unsuitable things on show, where you know the organisers are dodgy. Even where you know there are going to be big crowds/over-priced attractions/are just boring. But say that then. Avoid Pride if you have no interest in going. And say that then. But by insisting over and over, that you are avoiding all Pride events out of concerns for your children's welfare, you are going to come across as hysterical because many, maybe most, Pride events advertised as family friendly are indeed completely family friendly. Anyone with an open mind who reads half the posts on here and has ever attended a family friendly Pride event, will know for an actual fact that your claims are unfounded. At best they will dismiss you, and every valid argument you have, as hysteria. At worst, they will dismiss you as a homophobe.

And who wins then?

@SirenSays

Maybe I should, if checking a fb page is too difficult for you. I mean I definitely believe you need some help reigning in since you do seem to love imagining things. Imaginary insulting emails and kink displays at the hundreds of events every year where there are none. Like a pp poster said it does seem like there's an agenda on here.

Checking a fb page shows you the images people want to show others. It's not exactly international level espionage.

I know this, because I have a facebook profile myself...

So as a parent are you saying to guard against people thinking you are a homophobe you should take your child to an event which you think might have sexually explicit content????? I think on balance it’s highly unlikely anyone would think I was homophobic but if they did I’d shoulder that rather than go. I’m happy for others to disagree.

I'm just amazed she knows so much about all this - in quite specific detail. That has to have come from somewhere. My 10 year old just likes the flag because it's a rainbow. She knows boys can marry boys and girls can marry girls but I think she'd rather do laser quest than Pride - thankfully.

Thanks for all the posts. I have read them all.

@FloralBunting Thank you for that website link. That is perfect and exactly what I want my DD to know.

AKA Loving another woman is natural and normal. Every female body is different and perfect just the way they are. Wearing looser darker clothes is just as good as low cut fitted pink dresses. Don't bind breasts, it is painful and unhealthy. Love yourself.

I have decided to send that link to my DD and allow her to read it in her own time. I have read all the pages, it is a simple enough website and I am happy for her to read it on her own and have a think about it.

As she doesn't have any feeling re being gay/straight. She might be interested in learning more about her aunt's relationship and about her good friend (also 10yo) who came out as a lesbian recently.

I will tell her not to contact the emails on that website without my input. I trust she won't. However we do monitor her email address anyway, it is only sign ups on educational websites over lock down.

Then she can talk to me, if the website raised any questions.

I have also decided to say a No to visiting the local pride next year. I reviewed a video and a photo gallery of the last local pride and whilst I didn't see anything worrying, it was very crowded noisy and men centred. Even the performing artists were all men or men in drag.

So the issue is sorted. No to pride. Yes to Webpage link.