Why do some men hate women?

[Nightmarenextdoor]

Not sure that’s the right question or if this is the right place but it’s been nagging away at me since reading about the Plymouth shootings because it resonates so much with my experiences in online dating.

I’ve spoken to so many men that remind me of that guy - obviously not as extreme but who are for some reason (often the way they look but also just being ‘different’) not ticking the boxes for women. They haven’t generally ticked any for me either and in fact I’m not getting many matches myself but it doesn’t fill me with hatred for every man (although I am pretty cynical about it).

And then there’s the way people behave - I’ve heard women do it too but men are just so brutal, so completely disregarding of feelings or manners, and if you don’t look or behave like their idea of what a woman should you either get ‘what you deserve’ - whatever their version of that is - or are ignored completely.

I count myself very much as a feminist but I’m not up on everything that gets discussed on here. This really worries me though, I’m a single mum raising a daughter and I feel the future for us is bleak and scary in terms of how men view us - at best we’ll get one who ‘only’ expects us to look amazing and be open minded in bed as a minimum, at worst it’ll be one who despises us just for being female.

Fucking hell vampirethriller and thanks for sharing your experience. I hope you are in a much better place now.

Why do women always pay the penalty for men’s obsessions.

I think that many men think that their mothers did not give them enough love and attention and this just continues to their feelings towards women in their lives later on.

I am confused about men and sex - on MN posters say he can give himself a handjob if the partner is not in the mood for sex, someone pestering for sex is an absolute no. But all these men can give themselves a hand job but obviously it isn't doing the trick. What is it about sex that men feel such a need for it, or that they feel they deserve regular sex with women.
Is it that men's sex drive is much stronger?

In my experience, men deal with rejection really badly - it really upsets them and it can lead to some really odd behaviour. If this happens, there's no chance of recovering a situation, the dynamic changes forever. The male ego is a very fragile thing.

@ItsLateHumpty I am, thank you, life is better than I could have imagined now.

Here's an old documentary featuring love shy and incels. It's depressing to watch. The love shy guy with glasses doesn't seem too bad but the incels are awful.

Unfortunately one aspect I think adds to the issue is that there are so few men in early years and primary school.

And many scoot up the ladder ASAP.

I say that as a teacher with a 20 yr career working in sen but mainly mainly boys who have a lot of social emotional needs, trauma etc.

The difference all the teachers make, no matter their sex, are be huge, life changing, but they see very few men.

It ultimately comes down to the skill of the teacher, but they need to see more men with those skills in my honest opinion.

Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.
Cheris Kramarae

icelolly12: no doubt their version of a "wholesome" woman will be something like a gilead wife or taliban preference

In my experience, men deal with rejection really badly

So much comes down to the primary school years and emotional literacy.

Girls are bombarded with messages to be emotional literate, but also self blame.

Boys are told to be brave and strong.

Some research has linked this to offending rates later on, and also rates of offending against women:

Part 1 of two

If we're talking about incels, I think it's based in self loathing, tbh. But that's a hard thing to deal with, so it's easier to direct outwards , towards women and more socially successful men.
I suspect most of these men were the kids who couldn't make friends, were crap at football weren't particularly clever, just didn't fit in, were belittled/bullied by the other kids. As they leave school they find out life as an adult is just as boring and lonely, perhaps even more so. They're still bottom of the (male) pecking order, and know they always will be. I also suspect a lot of these men are autistic which accounts for the rigid thinking. Some of them do manage to find a niche, eg, a hobby, but increasing online life seems to be replacing that kind of thing.

Here's an old documentary featuring love shy and incels. It's depressing to watch. The love shy guy with glasses doesn't seem too bad but the incels are awful.
The guy with the long hair is clearly on the autism spectrum. Quite a few of these “incels” are. They blame their looks and think they’re ugly, but often they’re fairly normal looking and are being rejected due to behavioural issues.

I think all men have an underlying unspoken notion that women are a secondary class to men. Even small things like asking women to take notes in meetings or having the expectation that housework and childcare is something they 'help' with but it's actually a woman's job. The good ones recognise and challenge that thinking but many don't and when it comes to women actively bucking their sense of place then it causes the men stress, they feel out of control when they are so used to being in control and some turn to this incel rubbish.

Male manual labour is undervalued? Hardly. Bin men, train drivers, road maintenance etc — all much more highly paid than the female stereotypical jobs like carers, hospitality etc.

Quick Googling shows that bin workers get up to £30k with experience. Pretty sure minimum wage carers will never get that much.

Men complain that some women hate all men. Probably some do, but they react by staying away from men, by building lives among groups of women.
Men who hate women don't stay away from them. They pursue them, abuse them, and sadly, sometimes kill them.

This is so true. It's like they can't cope with not being noticed by women and demand attention, like a toddler - even if it's bad attention. There are plenty of women who get overlooked by men all the time. They may feel resentful and bitch to their friends, but they don't lash out and shoot people, or demand that men be made their sex slaves.

I think it comes down to women are taught not to take up too much space in the world, don't be too loud, too confident, you might make others feel bad. Men are taught to be loud and brash and demand attention. And when they don't get it, they get angry.

What's more annoying about this is, these are a smaller group of men who take it to the extreme. But there are so many men out there who sympathise with them, and would never stand up to them and challenge it, mostly because it doesn't really affect them. They're not the target of this anger and rage, so they don't have to care. So many seemingly nice men, who see this as not a big problem and we're overreacting.

I was also struck by hearing de-transitioners stories, young women who had taken testosterone. They talked about feeling so confident, invincible, and powerful as an affect of the testosterone.
So perhaps there is a biological component to it.

@LazyViper

Male manual labour is undervalued? Hardly. Bin men, train drivers, road maintenance etc — all much more highly paid than the female stereotypical jobs like carers, hospitality etc.

Quick Googling shows that bin workers get up to £30k with experience. Pretty sure minimum wage carers will never get that much.

Yeah I was just thinking - childminding, nursing, cleaning ladies, care assistants, mostly women's jobs. All not very well paid.

Manual labour on building sites is paid extremely well, as are plumbers, electricians etc. all typically males roles.

@GreatAuntEmily

I think that many men think that their mothers did not give them enough love and attention and this just continues to their feelings towards women in their lives later on.

I am confused about men and sex - on MN posters say he can give himself a handjob if the partner is not in the mood for sex, someone pestering for sex is an absolute no. But all these men can give themselves a hand job but obviously it isn't doing the trick. What is it about sex that men feel such a need for it, or that they feel they deserve regular sex with women.
Is it that men's sex drive is much stronger?

Re your 2nd point, concerning sex and masturbation, I think that's possibly true for a lot of people (both men and women), but you really have to experience sex first to know that. Up till that point sex takes on this unknown mystical property, possibly built up out of all proportion. Of course these men might have thought 'meh... might as well do it myself' if they'd had sex a few times, but they have no way of knowing that.

@GiveMeAUserName123

I had to Google incel, and was shocked to discover they regard it as women’s fault, rather than their own.

Anyone in the cult needs shutting down and sectioning! That’s seriously messed up!

Have you watched the tv show "the fall"? I found the psychology of the killer in this to be informative of the misogynist/incel type. I guess they see women not as human beings but vehicles to sexual experience or climax and nothing else. They despise us at the same time and hate it when women become successful, independent, sexually fulfilled on our own terms. I have been unfortunate enough to meet a man like this who destroyed my life or made every conceivable effort to. He had a handy man friend was as bad as him only less able to conceal it. I thought these types of men were rare but they aren't. What I found most appalling were than the women he manipulated around him knew what he was doing to me but sided with him because they each had some sexual past with him or hoped to. He would easily exploit a chip on a shoulder or more easily manipulated women of a certain age. He was a lot older than me and I was idealistic, naive and too empathetic for my own good. I was confused with the person I thought I saw, the part I was in love with and appealed to that side of him not knowing that that part was an act. I later found out he was telling these women things to hurt them and make them feel insecure but talking about the sex we had or what I looked like naked. At other times he would tell them lies, insulting things he said I said about their age or looks. He would then tell me what they said in return without telling me that what they was was a response to the lies he told them that I supposedly said. He was very manipulative and got off on causing sexual jealousy in women. That made these women and especially one in particular to be whipped up into a frenzy of competitiveness. I found out all this years later and was sickened that some of these women still cling to him. Hes very vain, narcissistic and sociopathic. I couldnt prove it but I believe he attempted to poison me several times. He used to grab my throat during sex and when I would ask him why later he would deny he did it and say it was all in my head. I had loving relationships until I got involved with him and now I'm too fearful to try again and have been single ever since.

@Chosennone

Even in middle age I am still surprised by men I know who don't like women speaking their own mind! I was at an extended family BBQ recently and the alpha male was dominating the conversations and belittling women in various 'humourous' ways. One of the women cut him down with a quick witted comment, and everyone laughed, at him and I swear the look on his face, a quick flash of hatred, before he fumbled around for some lame comeback.

His own wife at one point laughed at some thing he said and just mumbled 'its easier to go along with him'. 🙄 my own DM is similar with my DF, anything for an easy life! 'Oh you know what your dads like... it's easier not to argue'. Fuck. That. Shit. Will all of them!

Same men and others are often, victim blames and rape apologists!

I think you've answered the question about why some men hate women haven't you? In general terms, we have the greater verbal dexterity to humiliate men and and make them feel worthless/small, or can punch holes in them in general using verbal skills.

If that's your experience of some women (mother/sister/whoever), or if you feel that about yourself somewhat (don't we all feel somewhat worthless sometimes?) and you're more sensitive and susceptible to such comments and a woman scornfully confirms it?

There's your (partial) answer....

Even in middle age I am still surprised by men I know who don't like women speaking their own mind!

I had this recently- made even worse by the fact that he was my own brother, who considers (and proclaims) himself to be liberal, deep thinking etc.

He was so irate that I was disagreeing with him (about a feminist issue, no less) that when insults such as 'cretinous' and jeers like "I've spoken to post-grads about this (clear implication that I'm thick because I don't even hold a degree) failed to deter me, he then said he could understand what my sexual abuser thought of me. The sexual abuser was another brother, and he abused me when I was 10.

Obviously I knew what a mysoginist the abusing brother was- but to find out that another felt the same way, and had managed to keep it so well hidden for so long, was very unsettling.

It perhaps does explain why he's been single for so long though. If you view your own sister as 'less than', it surely translates into other areas.

Because some men seem to think that sex is the most important thing in the world, and that their desire for it is actually a right and a literal need. They see women as nothing but a source of sexual gratification, and it infuriates them that we would dare refuse them. Inadequate creeps.

Oh my goodness @Shodan, what a horrific thing for your brother to say to you. It's so sickening when someone like that reveals themselves after carefully hiding away their actual feelings for many years.

Agreed, being able to take a rejection with good grace should be a priority for each and every man. I mean obviously we are never going to like rejection, but it’s beyond ridiculous how men react to it sometimes.

It's not just the need for sex though ..the other needs of nurturing , comfort and validation are also desired , and when young men try to gain that from other women ( other than their mothers) and are rejected then resentment can grow .
I'm a man and when in my forties and single, I had a bunch of male friends I called The Unshaggable Men because ..well ..they were .They were good guys but clumsy , nerdy , not good looking frankly , never the first pick for teams at school, a bit obsessive on hobbies and rock bands . Anyone of them would have made a good partner and dad given the right circumstances and opportunity, but early rejection and then self protection made them withdraw from trying to get female attention . None of them ever expressed hatred or resentment of women , more a sadness and resignation that they wouldnt find a partner ...so unlike the incels we're discussing, no animosity from them , maybe because they were older, and younger men have been fed a diet of not just porn but entitlement too .

@ginandbearit I’m a man, and have friends that resonate with your description. Did you not think to take any of them under your wing a bit, and bolster their confidence?

I’ve done it a few times, and whilst it’s not necessarily easy, you can make all difference. One guy I helper is married now and well liked/respected.

I often think we men need to be a little better at stepping up for one another (and ofc women and children). A little emotional support can make a huge difference.