Why do some men hate women?

[Nightmarenextdoor]

Not sure that’s the right question or if this is the right place but it’s been nagging away at me since reading about the Plymouth shootings because it resonates so much with my experiences in online dating.

I’ve spoken to so many men that remind me of that guy - obviously not as extreme but who are for some reason (often the way they look but also just being ‘different’) not ticking the boxes for women. They haven’t generally ticked any for me either and in fact I’m not getting many matches myself but it doesn’t fill me with hatred for every man (although I am pretty cynical about it).

And then there’s the way people behave - I’ve heard women do it too but men are just so brutal, so completely disregarding of feelings or manners, and if you don’t look or behave like their idea of what a woman should you either get ‘what you deserve’ - whatever their version of that is - or are ignored completely.

I count myself very much as a feminist but I’m not up on everything that gets discussed on here. This really worries me though, I’m a single mum raising a daughter and I feel the future for us is bleak and scary in terms of how men view us - at best we’ll get one who ‘only’ expects us to look amazing and be open minded in bed as a minimum, at worst it’ll be one who despises us just for being female.

@BadMotherLover

I think the men who hate women exhibit behaviour like this, I also think that there are a lot of women who hate men and exhibit equally toxic but very different behaviours - manipulative and not violent. I think quite a few men and women feed off this poisonous dynamic in both directions. It is very sad and depressing. It is getting worse and worse.

I don't know at women like this. I do know women who have as little to do with men as possible (and a know a few who express concerns about male behaviour online!) but i don't know any women who actively seek out men to hurt them, emotionally or physically.

@BadMotherLover

I think the men who hate women exhibit behaviour like this, I also think that there are a lot of women who hate men and exhibit equally toxic but very different behaviours - manipulative and not violent. I think quite a few men and women feed off this poisonous dynamic in both directions. It is very sad and depressing. It is getting worse and worse.

I think it is incredibly dismissive to say that women display EQUALLY toxic behaviour. Toxic, yes, but it is a long, long way from being equal.

I agree that's its entitlement.
But i have to say they are fed the same media shit as us... A woman is thin, with clear skin, beautiful hair...dresses so well. Kind, clever. No baggage.
They wont get that because it doesnt exist.

We know the media tells a false story.
These men dont see that. They think that women should all be perfect.

So a lovely woman talks to them, may have an interest in him.
But she isn't a supermodel.
He will reject. Because he deserves a model...

They buy into media shit.
Then are dissatisfied that they can't get what is expected.
Its no excuse.
Where the entitlement comes from... Thats the problem.

They buy into media shit. Then are dissatisfied that they can't get what is expected. Its no excuse.

Yes - and the porn ideal of a woman is a big part of that.

@GiveMeAUserName123

If their that desperate for sex why did they never hire a hooker? I know there is so much wrong with that sentence, but I’d rather do that than go shoot random people in the street.

The whole thing doesn’t make sense, you get plenty of females into their 20’s who are also virgins, is that all the menz fault?

It really shows the difference in socialisation. A woman in her twenties who was a virgin and didn't want to be would likely turn everything inward and think there was something wrong with her own appearance, personality or behaviour, whether or not it was true. But if a man in his twenties is a virgin he thinks it's all the evil women's fault for not having sex with him.

I think men really just don't view women as fully human with a right to full autonomy.

This is completely unscientific but also, I wonder if they're just a bit more stuck in our evolutionary past, the y chromosome is so small it has very little ability to shuffle information an evolve without becoming non-functional.
They're just possessive, insecure, sexually driven apes in a way we aren't. This still wouldn't hold them back if they truly realised women didn't deserve their behaviour though.

@ViceLikeBlip

I worry that a lot of men feel this way about women, but most of them reluctantly adhere to social norms because it makes a nice easy life for them, not because they actually believe that women are equal or even worthy of respect. You only have to look at the way so many "normal, respectable" men talk and behave in male spaces, "locker room talk" etc.

These "incels" are just one branch, who probably lack the social skills to "play the game". We all know that most men who have a total contempt for women do manage to find multiple partners, often through a very calculated, manipulative love bombing phase. And then proceed make their lives a living hell.

Ps I do of course know a large number of genuinely decent men. But I also know a large number who are not, and who I believe would be vulnerable to this kind of radicalisation, or who at least would quickly become emboldened in expressing their true beliefs with just a small shift in social norms.

Yes, it's scary, a small shift in what's acceptable could embolden a lot more sexist misogynist men to behave even more appallingly.

But i have to say they are fed the same media shit as us... A woman is thin, with clear skin, beautiful hair...dresses so well. Kind, clever. No baggage.
They wont get that because it doesnt exist.

Good point, when I was younger (& had a great figure) I would always be insecure before a beach holiday thinking everyone would be supermodels. Of course you get there & realise the vast majority don't look like supermodels.

@GiveMeAUserName123

I had to Google incel, and was shocked to discover they regard it as women’s fault, rather than their own.

Anyone in the cult needs shutting down and sectioning! That’s seriously messed up!

What do you imagine sectioning to be? Its not a mechanism for removing unwanted views from society.

Deep rooted misogyny. Tale as old as time. This generation have grown up on porn being instantly available, normalised. I'm not surprised at this incel movement at all. It's just an extreme form of very common feelings and behaviours of a lot of men and society in general.

If I was a Christian, I'd say these were the definite end times

Sectioning is removing people from society that are a danger to themselves or the public.

Obviously I don’t mean section everyone in the forums, that’s just stupid, it’s a figure of speech, did you really not know that, or was you just being funny? Do you want me to laugh?

Vanessa Kinsul's thread addressing:

the disparity in how certain boys deal with the loneliness and social exclusion that SO MANY experience is deeply troubling to me.

archive of thread: archive.is/RmCqh

twitter.com/Vanessa_Kisuule/status/1426177456684273665

Her original thread she quote tweets:

I find it interesting that ‘incel’ has become synonymous with angry boys who think they are owed sex when the incel term, and community, were initially pioneered by a woman for ALL genders who lamented a lack of sex/romance in their lives.
…
It is straight white boys, who are taught that the world is theirs, that cannot handle the world’s disdain or, shock horror, its indifference. But to them I say, welcome.…‘The unwanted’ is a club replete with members. These boys don’t want love, btw. They want status. If you read their online diatribes, they're obsessed with obtaining the attentions of hot, skinny, Aryan bombshells - retrograde archetypes straight out of 2005. They want the associative gravitas. The woman herself is collateral

archive of thread: archive.ph/mEsK5

twitter.com/Vanessa_Kisuule/status/1372267558301229057

It really shows the difference in socialisation. A woman in her twenties who was a virgin and didn't want to be would likely turn everything inward and think there was something wrong with her own appearance, personality or behaviour, whether or not it was true. But if a man in his twenties is a virgin he thinks it's all the evil women's fault for not having sex with him

Exactly! In general, men over-estimate their attractiveness and abilities and women under-estimate theirs. This was perfectly demonstrated by a discussion some years ago on R4 about men who repeatedly try to engage with women who’re wearing earphones on public transport. The man said: “I’d be flattered if a hot woman kept tapping me on the arm”. He automatically over-valued himself where, in reality, the comparison would be if a woman he didn’t find at all attractive kept trying to engage him.

The seething resentment of women some men exhibit is shocking. I think it’s a spectrum, with incels at one end. But it’s not all about sex IMO. Even gay men can be seething misogynists. For them, women have thwarted them in different ways.

I think the answer, as mentioned above, is that some men don’t see women as fully human. They see us as inferior and so the idea we might reject them in whatever way is seen as outrageous and humiliating, and increases their anger.

Incels are just men whose level of anger at women and inability to interact with them as equals is ramped up to a high level.

Why is he blaming his mother for his failings in life ; where is his father?

His father had been jailed for assault on the past, so not exactly a role model. Estranged from the family.

I think it's epitomised by the phrase 'but I'm a nice guy!'. It turns from saying 'why do women always go for bad boys? I'm such a nice guy!' to 'those nasty bitches - when bad things happen to them, they deserve it because they went for the bad boys - they didn't go for me - the nice guy!'

It's insidious in society - pursuing a woman who has turned you down until she 'sees the light' are a massive trope in romantic comedies. Ages ago I saw a poster on here say that their son came home from school upset because their crush had turned them down. She said 'do you know what you do next?' and he said 'I know, i know, keep trying' and she said 'no! The girl has told you how she feels- you need to respect that!'

It's not to say that women can't change their initial decision but that they don't have to because the man says 'but I like you!'.

Incels see women as the gatekeepers to sex. Non character players, with no agency or voice, playing a part in the man's life.

I think that’s a large part why I eschew most all male social groups (I’m a man). It wasn’t easy as for most of my childhood I went to all boys boarding schools. I was bullied and it was a wretched experience all round. My world started its turn to the good in my last two years of school when we had a small number of girls allowed in.

For some reason a lot of the girls actually liked me, and to be honest girls made more sense to me as well, not that I in any way claim to know what being a woman is like directly. Post that I’ve always highly prized mixed gender friendship circles.

My advice to any incel out there is get away from these all male spaces as quick as you can. You aren’t going to arrive at some crucial eureka moment with regards to understanding women by consorting with men who by their own admission suck at it.

I wonder a bit about the fathers of a lot of these spree killers who spout this toxic nonsense about women. Where were they during the formative years? What kind of example did they set?

I think, like other pp, that many men really aren't that far away from hating,or at least resenting, women. But how much of this is driven by a society that still ultimately sees men as better than women? Therefore, men who can't get a woman feel even more inadequate. Whereas women who can't get a man tend to have friends and hobbies.

@Dervel

I think that’s a large part why I eschew most all male social groups (I’m a man). It wasn’t easy as for most of my childhood I went to all boys boarding schools. I was bullied and it was a wretched experience all round. My world started its turn to the good in my last two years of school when we had a small number of girls allowed in.

For some reason a lot of the girls actually liked me, and to be honest girls made more sense to me as well, not that I in any way claim to know what being a woman is like directly. Post that I’ve always highly prized mixed gender friendship circles.

My advice to any incel out there is get away from these all male spaces as quick as you can. You aren’t going to arrive at some crucial eureka moment with regards to understanding women by consorting with men who by their own admission suck at it.

I wonder a bit about the fathers of a lot of these spree killers who spout this toxic nonsense about women. Where were they during the formative years? What kind of example did they set?

That's essentially good advice, although it's a myth that there is a eureka moment to 'understanding women' - women, like men, are all different.

Some men (I don't mean you, Dervel) seem to think women are like performing seals - hence these 'pick up artists' - 'this is how you get a woman to do X, this is how you get a woman to do Y'.

The most sensible thing men can do is stop trying to 'understand women' and simply treat them as individuals, concentrate on understanding the individual person that you want to befriend or have a relationship with.

@SquirryTheSquirrel yes of course your right. The basic fact is we’re all individuals and each person requires a nuanced and slightly different approach to get to know.

However if their aspiration is to be able to get close to and relate to women just considering the possibility of genuine friendship with the opposite sex is a far more productive place to start.

A point from up thread I’d echo and add to is opposition to this women like bad boys bullshit. Whilst I think that’s it’s true a certain measure of primal attraction between women and men lies in our respective shadows, and thus either a man or woman with an unregulated shadow and unintegrated personality can be somewhat magnetic, this isn’t a problem endemic to women we men can fall into the trap too.

However a lot of women IN relationships like these are often deeply unhappy if not downright scared and traumatised, and most often end up in them thanks to childhood neglect/trauma leading to having little to no boundaries, and being prime targets for abusive men. These men aren’t paragons off all things women find attractive,

I think the women like bad boys thing comes from that kind of 50s filmstar cliche- the rebel with a good heart etc. The other possibility is the saviour complex- he's a twat, but he won't be with me.

I also suspect most women, if they've had a 'bad' one, don't do it again. I certainly didn't. But it did make me appreciate a good one more.

Incels are a breakaway group from MRA culture. Both are a hierarchical supremacist movement that place men at the top of the structure and women at the bottom, subordinate to men.
Incels don't pay for sex because 'they shouldn't have to'; women 'should' submit to them.''

More info;
''Black Pill is a spin-off of the Red Pill men’s rights community that encourages men to become ‘alpha males’ via gaming women into sex and by getting fit.''
archive.is/p6AML

"These are men who think women are objects, they're to be used for sex. They think women who don't have sex with them deserve to be raped and massacred as a result, and they actively incite rape and violence against women, they encourage each other to do exactly what Jake Davison has done.
"They talk incessantly online about punishing women, about massacring as many people as they can as punishment for the fact that they're not having sex."
archive.is/74bLi

www.newamerica.org/political-reform/reports/misogynist-incels-and-male-supremacism/executive-summary

Most women don’t like bad boys though, it’s a complete myth.

It stems from women a few generations ago who didn’t have the ability/strength/knowledge to avoid arseholes.

You even saw it on the love island winter edition, a good looking guy said he had slept with over 100 women and all their reaction...instantly....was eeewwww!

@BadMotherLover

I think the men who hate women exhibit behaviour like this, I also think that there are a lot of women who hate men and exhibit equally toxic but very different behaviours - manipulative and not violent. I think quite a few men and women feed off this poisonous dynamic in both directions. It is very sad and depressing. It is getting worse and worse.

If women hate men, it is a reaction...it is because of men's revolting treatment of them, not because they feel entitled to their bodies or because they have been trained from infancy to hate them. There are no societal structures anywhere across the earth that are misandrist, so misogyny and misandry are NOT the same.

Now, IMO women have every reason to hate men and I would never, ever blame them for doing so, yet unlike men, the vast majority of us behave with a lot more humanity than the people who seem to think they are the superior humans.🥴 Go figure.

@GiveMeAUserName123

Most women don’t like bad boys though, it’s a complete myth.

It stems from women a few generations ago who didn’t have the ability/strength/knowledge to avoid arseholes.

You even saw it on the love island winter edition, a good looking guy said he had slept with over 100 women and all their reaction...instantly....was eeewwww!

Sometimes I wonder if the 'good guys' like to perpetuate this particular myth to give them an excuse to act more like beasts than human when it comes to their treatment of women. A bit like the men who claim women shout at them for holding open doors so they're just not going to do it again!

Yeah...as if you ever did you mannerless fuck.