Why do some men hate women?

[Nightmarenextdoor]

Not sure that’s the right question or if this is the right place but it’s been nagging away at me since reading about the Plymouth shootings because it resonates so much with my experiences in online dating.

I’ve spoken to so many men that remind me of that guy - obviously not as extreme but who are for some reason (often the way they look but also just being ‘different’) not ticking the boxes for women. They haven’t generally ticked any for me either and in fact I’m not getting many matches myself but it doesn’t fill me with hatred for every man (although I am pretty cynical about it).

And then there’s the way people behave - I’ve heard women do it too but men are just so brutal, so completely disregarding of feelings or manners, and if you don’t look or behave like their idea of what a woman should you either get ‘what you deserve’ - whatever their version of that is - or are ignored completely.

I count myself very much as a feminist but I’m not up on everything that gets discussed on here. This really worries me though, I’m a single mum raising a daughter and I feel the future for us is bleak and scary in terms of how men view us - at best we’ll get one who ‘only’ expects us to look amazing and be open minded in bed as a minimum, at worst it’ll be one who despises us just for being female.

That would explain the number of men online who insist that the prostitutes they use say they love their job (what else are they supposed to say to your face?) Or the women they date all demand to be choked.

I've started looking for evidence of goodness, instead of taking their word for it or assuming its there.

*Most women don’t like bad boys though, it’s a complete myth.

Agreed. But it's part of the incel narrative. If they are the 'good guys', then the men the women choose must be the 'bad guys'.

@Waitwhat23

*Most women don’t like bad boys though, it’s a complete myth.

Agreed. But it's part of the incel narrative. If they are the 'good guys', then the men the women choose must be the 'bad guys'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4207429-Why-do-women-fancy-bad-boys

This thread concludes that many do but grow out of it as they get older.

I was forced into prostitution when I was younger and sold in legal brothels all over England. I saw thousands and thousands of men and the one thing they had in common, after having enough money to pay a man to fuck me, was they hated women. They hated their wives and girlfriends for getting old or fat or not wanting sex or having babies and changing physically. They hated their wives being ill and unable to fuck. They hated that they can't just fuck anyone they want because No means No.
They hated that women were their boss. They hated that women drive buses and trains. They hated that women can earn money from looking good. They hated prostitutes because they had to pay.
They hated that feminism is a thing. They hated that 'I daren't even compliment a woman these days."
They hated that the legal age is 16 because 13-14 year olds are up for it, everyone knows that. Most women have no idea how much they're hated.

It's an impossible question to answer. I don't know why so many men hate women, just that they do. Think of all the men who get pleasure from watching women being raped or beaten or choked in pornography - millions of them. And then get angry if you try to challenge them on it. There's a real, deep-seated loathing there. And I don't know why.

I do know that some women seem not to like women very much either, though that's perhaps a different debate.

The other thing I've noticed is that when I was a young adult, in the 80s and 90s, men who wanted to be thought decent human beings at least put up an appearance of not hating women. There was a sense that to admit to hating women would incur some kind of social disapproval.

But that seems no longer seems to be the case. Men who have a public profile - Owen Jones, Peter Tatchell and Jolyon Maugham being obvious examples, but there are plenty of others - seem to be quite open about their loathing of women, and feminists in particular. Look at this article by Maya Forstater, for example:

mforstater.medium.com/the-phantom-pile-on-part-ii-b1f3232999ba

She quotes a tweet from Talcum X describing feminists as "the most emotionally sadistic and psychological [sic] manipulative cult I've come across".

The idea that this is an acceptable way for a man on the left to describe women trying to stand up for their rights - at a time when women are being murdered by the Taliban for the crime of being women - is quite remarkable.

The very fact of women standing up for themselves in the most innocuous of ways (by writing, publishing magazines, wearing suffragette colours, putting ribbons on trees, posting stickers in toilets etc) seems to induce levels of rage that would be more appropriately directed at people committing acts of serious violence.

Just to add a bit more. It seems to come from a very deep-rooted sense that men should be in charge and that women have no right to say no to men. And women saying no induces enormous levels of rage - how dare we say no? Don't we realise that we are here to do what men tell us?

Where does that come from? Is it simply socialisation?

For the incels there is a fundamental conflict between the fact that they see woman as desirable but also as inferior and beneath them. Desiring people that you also hold in contempt creates massive amounts of cognitive dissonance that vents itself in toxic ways.

I think it’s largely because the idea that men are entitled to sex with us pervades our society.

So when men don’t get what they’ve been raised to believe they’re entitled to, they become angry and bitter and that anger frequently manifests itself as violence.

But I think regardless of whether men get what they believe they’re entitled to, they hate the fact that they’re entitled to something and women can still say ‘no’ to it.

I think part of it is that historically women needed men. As in women couldn't earn a decent salary, couldn't vote unless married, couldn't get a mortgage unless married, couldn't realistically be a single parent. So historically even unattractive or weird men could get a wife with almost all women looking for a husband. Obviously that is not the case anymore, and women can exist perfectly well without a man. A man really has to bring something to the party to get a wife. Be that good looking, rich, funny, tall, kind, whatever. And some of those attributes take real effort. Getting educated, getting a decent job, being supportive, being a fabulous Dad are hard work and not for the faint hearted. So types like the perpetrator, are not blessed with the easy attributes (not particularly handsome) and can't be arsed to develop the time consuming attributes. They put no effort into being what most women want, and then blame the poor women for not wanting them. Wouldn't be at all surprised if this Plymouth guys poor mother had told him to buck his ideas up and look where that got her.

Could this bitterness towards woman by men be the direct result of woman having more control and independence of their own lives now that at any other time in history. I've wondered if its something to do with procreaction. Years ago woman absolutely had to be married in a relationship to have kids. Now a woman can have children without a partner. Single woman who dont want to be in a relationship can foster and adopt. Years ago being a single woman adopting was a complete no no. Thankfully attitudes have changed. A single woman can go to a sperm bank without a partner. I'm seeing increasing incidences of woman who just dont want a man in their life. To be honest with you its because of mens attitude towards woman is reason I want to distance myself from men as a partner. I have nice male friends though who I do get along with. Mens banter about woman when a group of men are together can be quite frankly appauling. Men are angry because woman now have a say about whether they want a partner of not. Years ago woman were married off to a man that she didn't want.

Because as other posters have pointed out its resentment about the equalities women are gaining and the fact they don't see it for what this is (us climbing the pendulum to equality) but rather the restriction of their right to absolute power.

My husband was born in 1981, the first women to win a payout for sex discrimination under the equal pay act was in 1986. So for most women on this forum our partners are not even a generation removed and their closest male relatives would have been men compliant or actively encouraging the subjugation of women.

Men now reaching adulthood are probably the first generation who are having to deal with equality. With women gaining better exam results and university places, with women choosing not to have children later and seeing men as disposable in the same way men have seen women as this for centuries. That equality stings and for a percentage of which I expect is higher than we ever can imagine they will never be able to understand their wrong.

Its about making long term gains with our sons for the future. Women now in their 18 to 30's are in my opinion going to have major influence on which course the feminist movement takes and that effect will remain until the end of the 2000's, they need to hold the fucking line and we need to have their backs.

I think part of it is that historically women needed men.

I don't agree with Reich but in combination with financial independence, it does seem to cut to the heart of oppressive structures.

Sexually awakened women, affirmed and recognized as such, would mean the complete collapse of the authoritarian ideology.

• Wilhelm Reich, The Mass Psychology of Fascism

archive.org/details/MassPsychologyOfFascism-WilhelmReich

I sometimes wonder if part of this apprehension is behind the reluctance to implement a UBI. Superficially, it makes more sense to invest in a social safety net, education, housing and an excellent health and social care system than in a large criminal justice system.

There are renewed murmurings about it post the furlough scheme for Covid - and people asking for a 'daughter of the furlough' to compensate people for job losses associated with climate change.

Union leaders want a PERMANENT furlough scheme to protect workers from 'future economic shocks' like climate change - despite UK already facing years of tax hikes to cover £66BILLION cost of saving jobs for 18 months

archive of article: archive.is/H2Yzp

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9888117/Union-leaders-demand-PERMANENT-daughter-furlough-set-protect-workers.html

But - how many of us think furlough was equitable for women? How many would fear greater financial autonomy for women if it gave more freedom and choices to say, "No!" Why do we think CMS is an ineffective nonsense that allows men not to pay for their children and to keep so many women and children in poverty?

From perusing some of these vile forums, some observations...

-they HATE the fact women no longer NEED men. This makes men useless.

-They HATE the fact that the typical work men do is undervalued in society - e.g. manual labour is overwhelmingly done by men and these jobs are largely underpaid with a low social status. They believe that men do all the important, necessary jobs in Society but this isn't realised by women, not western women anyway - most criticism is of western women on these incel forums.

• They HATE the fact that there is more competition in the workplace now that women have entered the workplace.

They hate the fact women are getting 'above their station' and overtaking men, e.g. in education, very bizarre as according to them all women are stupid

-They HATE the fact women can have and raise babies without a man.

-They HATE the fact that women apparently ONLY go for Chads (very good looking men) and never consider any other man, despite this being not at all true.

• They HATE the fact that these days woman can have sex without consequences (birth control etc). Which also makes little sense as surely these means there's more women to have sex with but hey ho.

-They HATE the fact they are being called out on their misogynistic behaviour and that it isn't acceptable (in public) anymore. Which drives them to these vile forums.

-They HATE older women (aka women who won't put up with their crap!) They feel that women are ruined past the age of 25 both physically and emotionally. Which leaves them with a very small pool of women to fight over as even men in their 40s and 50s plus on these forums apparently won't touch women past these ages.

-They HATE that women can get sex at any time whenever and where ever, even if she is old, fat and ugly....despite them also declaring that they won't touch any overweight woman over 25...

In other words, it's insecurity. The men who are underachieving in society feel this strongest and like a snake or a rat, a scared snake is also a dangerous snake...

Of course it's nothing that they need to improve on. Maybe they should have worked harder at school etc etc etc. Oh no it's all our fault.

But yes I think it's not just the incels, all men feel this to some degree. This afternoon I was at the fuel station filling up my tyres and some guy on a motorbike nips in first - I didn't care I wasn't in a rush. He asked me to read out what the PSI was when he started filling his tyre, I told him (it was incredibly low) his mate then ran over and took over ignoring me completely as if I was unable to do this despite regularly using the machine to fill my own car tyres and being able to read. Pathetic really, these were perfectly nice men but obviously being a woman I am unable to do certain things in their eyes.

A member of my own family recently commented on a woman 'asking for it' due to what she was wearing - apparently it's not the man's fault if he's tempted- he can't help his biology ... this coming from a man who also calls himself a feminist.

It really is like they do see us as a lesser species. And I genuinely think most men think this way to some extent, even the nice ones, whether or not they admit it.

They were brought up on hard core porn, from a really young age, and consequently believe it to be reality. When their experiences of women doesn't match their porn reality, it makes them extremely insane/dangerous. I think there's degrees of this too, and murderous incel is an extreme, and we've all met the less extreme versions which are also horrible, some I see mentioned in this thread.

@NotDavidTennant

For the incels there is a fundamental conflict between the fact that they see woman as desirable but also as inferior and beneath them. Desiring people that you also hold in contempt creates massive amounts of cognitive dissonance that vents itself in toxic ways.

Yes this. In their eyes men are the powerful and important ones. But when women are more than holding our own in education, the workplace etc, plus in their eyes we are the gatekeepers of the sex they are so obsessed with, this makes them very, very angry about the so called injustice. They can't just take and control, like they think is their right. Terrifying really.

@chardiej

They were brought up on hard core porn, from a really young age, and consequently believe it to be reality. When their experiences of women doesn't match their porn reality, it makes them extremely insane/dangerous. I think there's degrees of this too, and murderous incel is an extreme, and we've all met the less extreme versions which are also horrible, some I see mentioned in this thread.

On the forums, there's also great anger about the porn...

They watch the porn and think this is what all women are like, that women are sex obsessed and this is what women are doing with Chads, but they never get to experience it. They apparently want a nice wholesome woman, but all women have been tainted and ruined by multiple sex sessions with Chads...

@76FDre421

I have no idea what drives these men, but I do wonder if they are lashing out against a world that is on the one hand giving them a horrible, violent, objectified and pornified view of women (not just in porn but in insidious every day places like such tripe as love island) whilst they are also witnessing men’s power in the real world (education attainment and workplaces to name but two) start to diminish as women have gained more equality of opportunity. I subscribe to the Telegraph online (as well as other more left wing papers) to get a range of views and they published a headline after the GCSE results stating that “girls are just cleverer than boys”. The comments underneath were so horrific and misogynistic that I had to close it and stop reading. If you are an angry man who isn’t succeeding at life and doesn’t take responsibility for your failings there are plenty fans to flame that fire of hatred and resentment in everyday mainstream media. RIP all the poor innocent victims.

Well said.

I know someone who although a kind and decent person desperate to have a girlfriend and a normal life, just hasn’t managed to find a girlfriend . He feels women prefer men who treat them badly and feels bitter about that. It leads to all kinds of angry and bitter feelings and many men don’t know how to deal with those feelings. They don’t know what their role is supposed to be or how they are meant to act. They are often online a lot, on forums or possibly watching porn. It skews their judgement and some become unhinged as a result. If a man has never had a girlfriend and all he knows is women objectified in the media and in programmes like Love Island, it doesn’t lead to a healthy attitude to women.

-They HATE the fact that the typical work men do is undervalued in society - e.g. manual labour is overwhelmingly done by men and these jobs are largely underpaid with a low social status.

TBF this one is true.

@Bretoony

-They HATE the fact that the typical work men do is undervalued in society - e.g. manual labour is overwhelmingly done by men and these jobs are largely underpaid with a low social status.

TBF this one is true.

So there's a feeling of resentment that women 'demand' equality, but have a get out clause of certain manual jobs like road sweeper, bin person, pest control, builder etc etc. This is also justifying their view that women are not as important as men, as those jobs are essential for a fully functioning society and women can't/won't do them.

Not at all, jobs such as road sweeper, bin person, pest control, builder whether done by a man or women "are largely underpaid with a low social status" and I believe this is true, but unfair.

They hate women who aren’t giving them the attention they want. They’re jealous of men who are getting the attention they wish they had. In most cases they blame their looks or height or genetics, when in fact the problem is often mostly personality related.

Without commenting on any specific incel or incel forum, I think in general anger builds up against those who have, or are perceived to have, power over us.

When you always need to go through someone else in order to get what you want, that is a fertile ground for anger and resentment against that person. It is the reason some men harbour anger against women, because women hold the balance of power when it comes to sex. It is the reason employees often hate their bosses, despite not being mistreated, merely told what to do. It is the reason some women hate men, because they perceive society as being patriarchal with men holding the power.

The truth is that overall the balance of power is fairly equally divided among the sexes, and healthy individuals understand and acknowledge this. But when people only see the power others have over them, that's when resentment builds.

I don't think this is really anything new, it's just more obvious because it's all done online where everyone can see it.

Back in the 70s and 80s the vitriol and hatred towards lesbians was appalling and justified by men despising women who were independent of men, who weren't going to pander to men's needs.

This hatred has expanded as more heterosexual women have become independent of men. No longer does a woman have to accept a man in her life. Now a woman can be financially and emotionally independent, even have a child on her own. And as this independence has built up so has the resentment of it.

Men complain that some women hate all men. Probably some do, but they react by staying away from men, by building lives among groups of women.

Men who hate women don't stay away from them. They pursue them, abuse them, and sadly, sometimes kill them.

There is a movement called "femcels", i.e. women incels. They have at least one (closed) sub-reddit and probably a FB group too (I'm not on FB). From what I have read about them their resentment and rage is almost invariably turned inward: they hate their own bodies, not the men who don't desire them, even the boyfriends who let these women know they are just waiting until something better comes along. One of these femcels has yet to stock up on ammo and take out a half-a-dozen random passers-by.

Upstream swimmer 'The truth is that overall the balance of power is fairly equally divided among the sexes, and healthy individuals understand and acknowledge this.'

Yet even in the West women earn less than men, are under-represented at the higher levels in politics, law, and every profession from architecture to zoology & over-represented at the lower levels, do more housework and childcare (as the pandemic has confirmed), and continue to be far more afraid of men than men are of women. In other countries, it's far, far worse, as in Afghanistan now: the girls and women have already been told not to attend school or university any more; the first thing the Taliban does is start to control women again.