Children as young as 4 allowed to choose gender identity

[Plastic01]

Surprise surprise, Scotland again.

mol.im/a/9888899

If you were feeling depressed and suicidal then would you consider your parents supportive? Even if were doing everything they can?

“ A Scottish government spokesman said: “The infographic contained within the guidance is intended to be illustrative of the concerns which transgender young people may face. The infographic clearly contains the reference to the study as the source, and therefore is appropriate.”

Giving the reference to the source makes it appropriate?!??!?!? You mean you can stick any old survey into guidance and just by referencing the source you are fine?

You couldn’t make it up.

They really are appalling.

"it doesn't matter if we totally misrepresent a study as people can always follow the reference - even though our guidance is only justified by that misrepresentation"

@Tibtom

"it doesn't matter if we totally misrepresent a study as people can always follow the reference - even though our guidance is only justified by that misrepresentation"

What an indirect light this shines on their own acknowledgement of reality - that their justification needs misrepresentation and dishonesty to have any chance of succeeding. Allied to that, that it's necessary to introduce a broadening of the concept of 'hate crime' to suppress any objection made to them and also debate in the public arena.

With apologies to Isaiah Berlin's Two Concepts of Liberty it is as if the govt. in Scotland has determined that the ends for this topic have been agreed and all that remains to be determined are the precise forms of political engineering by which these ends are to be achieved (Oakeshott's "rationalism in politics").

The public is not to be allowed a voice in the necessary discussion about social and political order and how they intersect with what the Scots govt is implementing in their Utopia.

This is dangerous and ignorant (Berlin described it as "surprising"). Berlin delivered his lecture in 1958 but we are still grappling with familiar manipulations and a lack of engagement with the general populace. We're currently watching parts of Europe burn, Afghanistan is a metaphorical tinder box, and much of the world is still grappling with a pandemic, and a major democratic govt. has not been able to deal with an assault on its Capitol.

Dangerous, because when ideas are neglected by those who ought to attend to them – that is to say, those who have been trained to think critically about ideas – they sometimes acquire an unchecked momentum and an irresistible power over multitudes of men that may grow too violent to be affected by rational criticism.

Robert Conquest's Reflections on a Ravaged Century (2000) elaborated on this danger when he named the phenomenon of mindslaughter - he described the destruction of intellect by ideas grown too violent to be affected by rational criticism

The govt. of Scotland is perpetrating this on various topics of interest to the public. It feels as if they are abusing powers in a way that resembles political systems they would otherwise deplore - and, here they are, actively misleading the public and refusing to be accountable for their misrepresentation.

They flat out refused to listen to experienced voices with a wide knowledge base. I was told in Feb 2020 that “ the opportunity to participate in the guidance’s development has passed.” (And I’m not putting myself in that category- I mean others I suggested!)

Yet it wasn’t published for another 18 months.

And a comment piece by Alex Massie in The Times

(Archived as share tokens aren’t working)

“Alex Massie: Bad data can never form the basis of good policy”

“ Even if you accept the Scottish government’s policy, it is plain it is, in large and frightening part, built upon unreliable data that has been reinterpreted as holy writ. At best, this is good policy that is the fruit of bad thinking.
It is much more probable, however, that it is actually the product of back-to-front policymaking. The conclusion is established first and a search is then conducted to provide the evidence necessary to support the required conclusion. This is revealing. A better, more honest administration would draw conclusions from evidence but we have one which prefers to arrange these things precisely the other way round.”

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2021.08.16-170615/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-bad-data-can-never-form-the-basis-of-good-policy-p08pwr6h9" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">archive.ph/2021.08.16-170615/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-bad-data-can-never-form-the-basis-of-good-policy-p08pwr6h9

That's a fine article to share, rogdmum - thank you.

I am strongly supportive of Alex Massie's summary here - it's almost irrelevant what the policy or topic is, bad data and flawed reasoning will always be shoddy foundations.

this is a column about how the Scottish government thinks, the way it develops policy, and then the way it attempts to persuade voters this policy is appropriate, proportionate and wise.

MBMPolicy had an excellent tweet thread on similar matters to do with evidence-based policy making but I can't find it.

Thanks rogd AM has been good on this & whilst the wholesale destruction of safeguarding & women's rights are my focus he is absolutely right to look at the bigger picture. I really worry about how such absolutely wrong information is being endorsed by our government.

I really worry about how such absolutely wrong information is being endorsed by our government.

If we tolerate this (so to speak), how emboldened will the Scots govt. be and just how far are they prepared to go and how much of evidence-based policy making are they prepared to set aside.

The main actors in the Scottish Enlightenment must be spinning so hard in their graves that they're like to set up their own gravity field.

If we tolerate this yep I find Ihave the maniacs as a semi permanent ear worm just now

As a country we have fallen so very very far.

Still going ...

Wonder how many extra "consultations" scotgov are planning to run to "educate" the 98%

It don’t matter what we say

SG will do what they want

Yet drugs death alcohol deaths nhs waiting lists education attainment gap SG don’t seem to care

Cal Mac ferries bridges that have to close when it’s icy

The list goes on

It was said to be LGBT . but they never really mentioned gay or lesbian children
My government useless

Yet this is important

Oh and great article. Thanks for posting it

Absolutely, littl.

It's almost like this is a really eye-catching, infuriating topic that has the power to drag our attention away from our crumbling infrastructure, failing schools and disastrous health service.

Alex Massie's article is frightening.

@Plastic01

The whole 'gender neutral uniform' is disturbing as well and will result in girls losing even more of their female identity.

You've totally misunderstood that. It just means one uniform for all to choose from. Eg trousers aren't just for boys. It's all about choice

It's almost like this is a really eye-catching, infuriating topic that has the power to drag our attention away from our crumbling infrastructure, failing schools and disastrous health service.

I've thought this too! I do think some of the push, governments world-wide-wise, is for distraction (and for more Pharma customers).
Cuz it seems all of the West is obsessed with Covid and this gender stuff. It's like nothing else in life matters anymore. Just covid, covid, covid, gender, gender, gender. Like, omfg, there are other serious things in life too.

So anything else of importance in society, and there are MANY issues, which shouldn't be put off too much longer, are shoved away. Could be a way to destroy societies, from within.

We're all gonna die, or close, from something else, probably something practical, and be perplexed as to why or how; well, cuz, all the humans did was obsess over covid and gender and sex
foolish, if that's the truth. Probably purposely planned by ???? if that's the truth

I swear, every news program, paper, the world over in the West is 90% either covid or the gender stuff.
smh, we are all doomed, I fear.

It would be more realistic to allow them to choose how rich they are, what nationality they are, what language they speak, what kind of car they drive, their hair color, and what they want to do all the livelong day than their sex.

The SNP benefitted hugely from the pandemic. Aside from Sturgeon having a daily party political broadcast/propaganda on mainstream media everyday for over a year, it is generally the case that a crisis not of their own making favours the incumbant. People are more wary of change and issue for which they would normally be held to account are pushed off the public agenda.

lbd I agree the SNP are going to do exactly what they want. I think this is the time for parents to speak amongst themselves and then approach their individual schools and LAs and start complaining about the guidance. In 2019, SAS said she was revising the guidance because she was worried people were losing faith in it (because it was bloody unlawful!!!) and so schools wouldn’t use it.

The new guidance is a beefed up version of the old guidance, except with the upfront warning to schools to take legal advice as appropriate(!j something cash strapped councils can ill afford. I think schools should be tackled with this pointed out- get them to “lose faith” and not implement the unlawful and unethical elements of it. Point out that ScotGov are well aware of the unlawful elements:

I’d also be writing to local councillors and opposition MSPs. The Tories are mildly sympathetic but still not quite willing to stick their necks out (with the exception of Murdo Fraser). If they hear from more of this, perhaps it will change.

But I think the emphasis should be more local. Give your school other options, TT, Sex Matters. Point out that GIDS does not recommend the social transition of young children and that they are neutral on adolescents, understanding the importance of the decision being made within the family. Point out the concerns the clinicians in Australia have re children coming to GIDS already socially transitioned and with a rigid mindset.

Ask why the guidance makes NO mention of the involvement of any mental health professionals that may be involved in the child’s life and who may recommend against affirming. There is no mention of the clinical side at all.,Why is this? Why does the guidance not take this into consideration (even after the IAW unit responsible was asked).

And also ask MSPs to contact the Children’s Commissioner and ask why his office has been silent on the new guidance. He heartily endorsed the previous version and refused to pull his endorsement when the flaws were pointed out. Why the silence so far?

The children's co.mmissionerseems silent on an awful lot - not least the impact of covid policies on children (lack of evidence of benefits of home schooling primary aged children, exams, why masks for under 12s, whether 'because it will encourage compliance in the community' is a reasonable justification for older children wearing masks)

Ask why the guidance makes NO mention of the involvement of any mental health professionals that may be involved in the child’s life and who may recommend against affirming.

I do think some of that is because the mental health field has ALSO become extremely medicalized, often to the exclusion of anything else. Think of how many young kids were/are put on psych meds for various things right off the bat, like it's the only option. Possibly why the medical route for trans kids/people is so heavily pushed. Big pharma dug into the mental health field, at least since the 80s/90s with an iron claw. A lot of people in the West think that a pill or med thing is the answer to everything and if it causes harm, well blame the patient or ignore it, don't question drs scientists drug companies, they are god. Even the public scorns many people for not firstly and only going the medical route, even if you've tried it and it didn't work, or, worse, made things worse. I hear people tell others, and have had it said to me, well if you're not gonna take meds you just don't want any help.

People have been trained to believe that big pharma, doctors, and the like are god. Do not question, do not challenge, comply, obey or else be shunned, and also in pain. It's a technomedical cult in some regards to me. I know someone whose answer to EVERY problem, mental or physical, is go to dr and get some meds, or a procedure. When I challenged that, she said angrily, "well, that's what modern medicine IS!" I said, well no wonder the West is largely populated with physically and mentally ill people. And some western countries are worse than others. Like, the usa ranks somewhere under number ten, and I think it was more like under 20th spot for physical health despite it paying the most in healthcare! mental health is probably worse.

do the same thing, expect different results=insanity. But people have been trained to regard all aspects of "modern" medicine as the law of god, never to be questioned, and if you do, you are the problem. Whilst they take 30 pills a day and get sicker, sicker, sicker but think that's normal and if they just found the right pill, and keep taking these pills, surely their medical gods will transform them anew

not saying there is no use, and not a time/place for modern medicine with some things. It's very helpful in some regards. The balance has been lost. People are trained to NEVER listen to their own bodies, only to drs/drug companies. And if you claim you know your own body best...no no no, that is not accurate, get back line, under no circumstances are you an authority over your own body. Literally the West sold all its human bodies out to big pharma, imo. And if you think pharma and the technomedical industrial/capitalistic complex is purely there to make you healthy, rofl. Corruption, political ties, money money money, power power power to be made. Also, the industry seems to rarely admit it was wrong or made a mistake. And by now people should know that "scientific" studies can be bought and paid for to tweak or tell the results they want, for an agenda. Even though in real life, real science changes, you are supposed to try and prove your hypothesis wrong. Not take an iron-clad fist to the latest pill or med-fad and promote it like gospel even the face of scores of patients saying it doesn't work or there are problems.

Obviously some good people and worthy things with medicine. There is or can be a dark side to "modern" medicine, and people choose to turn a blind eye, even in the face of law suits against companies, drs arrested, etc. It can NEVER do wrong so nothing to see here, take your pills and move along.

And the mental health field, has, sadly, gone down this route, too. Also in terms of the thinking the medical route is the only way to mental health. And also refusing to believe they are not god and do know everything and might be wrong, which is human, but ok then let's find a new solution instead holding strong to the old one so you appear god-like and know everything cuz you're an "expert." It's called medical practice for a reason! Instead of helping patients/clients/human beings, they like to lord over and dictate and judge their subjects

Obviously some good mental health workers out there, so no offense to good drs and mental health workers.

Wingless That’s not what I mean at all. There are children where affirmation is blindingly unsuitable at best and dangerous at worst which has been picked up by psychologists and/or psychiatrists and schools affirming is undermining the therapy they are undergoing/have undergone. There are some excellent clinicians in this field.

ScotGov are well aware of this scenario and yet they have completely ignored the fact that many of these children might be under the care of mental health experts and that schools do not have the expertise to undermine their recommendations. Would a school actively undermine these for any other mental health issue, and if they did, would it be endorsed by govt/a lobby group? There is no mention of what a school should do. Common sense should dictate that they listen. My experience is that they (some) don’t.

Instead, schools are told to listen to guidance driven by a lobby group, LGBTYS and within that, to their Education Manager with a CV which leaves a lot to be desired when looking at qualifications for advising schools on such a serious issue.