Children as young as 4 allowed to choose gender identity

[Plastic01]

Surprise surprise, Scotland again.

mol.im/a/9888899

I’m not campaigning for anything. I just said I’ve no problem with gender neutral uniform. I also (perhaps inarticulately) tried to make the point that strict gender expectations are generally regarded to be a bad thing. I wasn’t referring specifically to clothes but also “life styles and gender norms.” Plenty to rail against there I think.

I take your point that if gender neutral means a default to the male version it’s not great. I do feel that for small children engaged in a play based curriculum with sport/daily mile etc joggers are a better choice and offer more independent dressing than skirts and tights (I can barely put tights on myself). But I’m not campaigning or arguing skirts should be banned and obviously would remain an option to all in a gender neutral policy.

To your point that no one has said that girls must wear a skirt. It’s not really what I was talking about but unfortunately there are still schools in the uk where skirts are the only uniform - check out let clothes be clothes on Facebook who have campaigned over this.

The above was to leonpride.

We talking about Scotland - put them all in kilts!

But again let’s not get our gender neutral undergarments in a twist about uniform snd derail from the meat of the policy!

Skirts aren't what make you a girl. And I doubt many girls would like their identity to be represented by a boring school uniform skirt. Trousers are practical - that's partly why women spent so long wanting to be allowed to wear them. No, they're sometimes not particularly flattering on some people, but school uniform isn't flattering on many people, including some boys. Perhaps a wider variety of styles of trousers would be a better option.

But they should still have the option to wear them if that's what they prefer. Teenagers like to express themselves through clothes, hair and makeup and while these things don't make you a girl, they do contribute towards identity. Having all traditionally female garments taken away to placate certain groups is just wrong.

This is very, very, very stupid.

Every child needs a legal guardian. Unless there is a reason to transfer care to somebody else that is their parent.

If a non specific adult with no formal legal duty towards the child beyond that of a teacher keeps secrets from parents, the child is obviously left in a very vulnerable position.

I don’t have strong feelings about Scottish Independence, but I really worry about a Scotland led by this government.

But they should still have the option to wear them if that's what they prefer. Teenagers like to express themselves through clothes, hair and makeup and while these things don't make you a girl, they do contribute towards identity. Having all traditionally female garments taken away to placate certain groups is just wrong.

Which groups do you placate by getting rid of school uniform skirts? Teachers probably - one of the reasons skirts are such a pain is that lots of girls roll them up or wear them ridiculously short.

As for teenagers wanting to express themselves,surely that's an argument for ditching school uniform altogether, rather than having something as dull and 'uniform' as the standard grey skirts and grey trousers?

If boys want to wear skirts and girls trousers, that's fine by me.

Why shouldn't girls wear a skirt, skort or dress?

Well because even very lady-like little girls might want to climb the odd tree, do a cartwheel or ride a bicycle.

The most worrying part of this guidance is the suggestion that parents need not be told if children their transition on the basis that children have a right to privacy under Article 16 the UN convention on the rights of the child. This is a misrepresentation of Article 16 which says that children have to protection from 'arbitrary and unlawful interference' with their privacy (and it was intended to guard against state interference). There is NOTHING arbitrary or unlawful about schools keeping parents informed re their children's wellbeing. But this misleading guidance may scare schools/teachers into thinking they have to keep secrets from parents.

But getting back to the point, if I had children and lived in Scotland right now, I would be homeschooling until those guidelines were overturned.

@MaryGubbins

I’m fine with gender neutral uniform. All small primary kids should be wear a polo shirt and track suit trousers to school in my opinion. The idea children of different sexes must adopt different clothes and life styles and rigid gender norms is one of the things I rail against.

Exactly. I am a woman, the last time I wore a dress was nearly 3 years ago to a wedding, the time before was probably 10 years ago. I live in jeans or leggings or smart trousers if I'm dressing up a bit. I can't see any good reason why girls can't go to school in track suit bottoms and a comfortable top or shorts in summer, same for boys.

I was pleased to see this story on the front page of the Telegraph with a longer follow up at the top of page three, including several paragraphs gIving feminist objections. Later came the statement "Studies have shown that the majority of such children revert to their biological sexual identity if left untreated".

We wouldn't have seen that sort of coverage a year or two ago.

@Diptheria23

The most worrying part of this guidance is the suggestion that parents need not be told if children their transition on the basis that children have a right to privacy under Article 16 the UN convention on the rights of the child. This is a misrepresentation of Article 16 which says that children have to protection from 'arbitrary and unlawful interference' with their privacy (and it was intended to guard against state interference). There is NOTHING arbitrary or unlawful about schools keeping parents informed re their children's wellbeing. But this misleading guidance may scare schools/teachers into thinking they have to keep secrets from parents.

Difficult to understand how a 4 year old can have a right to privacy from their legal guardian.

I find myself increasingly asking when a political idealogy tips over from being dangerous into being evil.

I can't see any good reason why girls can't go to school in track suit bottoms and a comfortable top or shorts in summer, same for boys

So add options. As opposed to remove them. Problem solved. But don't pretend removing options for girls is doing them favours some how. Botbwheh buys wearing skirts are actively applauded and called brave.

The only ones ever criticised fir wearing "girls" clothes are girls

Not when boys wearing skirts

Apologies for typos

Exactly. If this stands, it may will be challenged in court. But in the meantime, its really scary - for parents, teachers and children - to suggest that they are legally obliged to keep secrets . It's also a safeguarding risk.

The idea that adults in schools can keep a child's secret about them thinking they're the opposite sex is quite incredible. What sort of adult colludes with a 6, 8, 10 or 12 year old about secrets about their sex? There's only one type of adult who does this and they're precisely the type of adult everyone's worked for generations to keep away from children. Yet here's a government giving these adults a license to separate a child from their parents.

Why are we talking about clothes on here when safeguarding has been trashed by Scottish government

I was about to ask the same thing as lbd
I think school uniforms are the very tip of the problems with this dangerous new guidance.

Any child can use the toilet of their new "gender" so our girls dealing with first periods at primary school will be doing so with any boy who's told the teacher he thinks he's a girl (or Non binary? They always seem to mean "not man" & get lumped into the "not man" group )

The safeguarding nightmare that is teachers promising to keep secrets

Etc

The PP to cited Named Person is exactly correct this is the same authoritarian government keen to separate children from their families.

@littlbrowndog

Why are we talking about clothes on here when safeguarding has been trashed by Scottish government

Exactly. Not really the time or the place.

My DD was 10 when she started her period. I've already had a phone call from her from the school toilet when her period leaked through her clothes and on to her chair. She was too embarrassed to ask the teacher for help. She is terrified of one of the boys from class seeing her leak and say something and really would ot cope with unisex toilets/ boys in the girls toilet, no matter how kind or effeminate they are.

Why is her distress less important than those with gender dysphoria? And my DD is not the only one.

And why the eff would you allow male and female young people to shower and change together. Does safeguarding not mean anything any more? It's Wiispa in Scotlands schools.

WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK SNP???

And why the eff would you allow male and female young people to shower and change together. Does safeguarding not mean anything any more? It's Wiispa in Scotlands schools

At one point the cps actually released guidebce to teachers which included dvds of scenarios that made it clear to children that rejecting a trans child as part of a friendship relationship was a hate crime. And if course that outing a trans person before they were ready was also a hate crime. They were then made to feel guilty via dvd fir questioning why a male was in the girls loos .

This was CPS hate crime guidence fir schools.

I believe it has since been withdrawn but with law enforcement in on this where does anyone turn

Any child can use the toilet of their new "gender" so our girls dealing with first periods at primary school will be doing so with any boy who's told the teacher he thinks he's a girl (or Non binary?*

The guidance makes it clear anyone can use any toilet or changing room - no gender declarations needed. They are all mixed sex and the signs on the doors are meaningless

I don’t understand why a gender neutral uniform isn’t just a list of options to choose from rather than the usual lists for boys/girls. Same goes for PE kit with variations for the sport.

Surely by taking out the ‘assigned’ sex heading it all become neutral?