Have feminists brought this upon themselves?

[Lessthanaballpark]

I’ve heard this opinion so much lately, mostly amongst men who seem to be enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

The opinion is that feminists have been attacking male spaces for years and now are getting their comeuppance.

Or that we’ve created the language of inclusion and gender that has led to this.

It’s a mean spirited attitude for sure. But is there any truth to it? Has feminism hoisted itself with its own petard?

Of course not. Some men will use anything to put women back in 'their place'.

How do they justify the inequality of the sexes that led to Feminism, I wonder?

'Feminists' seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting in that statement.

The answer is no. Men abusing women's boundaries is on men. Some women have always propped up bad male behaviour. But feminism (not the bastardized version of getting yer tits out fer the lads) has always pushed back against male entitlement.

The men saying this can fuck off, basically.

In a way yes but not how you’ve said it.
Men have weaponised the concepts of feminist theory against women.
So no, women did not “cause” the trans cluster we find ourselves in and it’s not comeuppance or anything justified. It’s simply that our own weapons are being used against us. Which is a typical man thing if you think about it long enough. Best defence is to go on offensive etc.

By "male spaces" do they mean spaces that have traditionally excluded women due to those places being places of privilege, power and influence??

@PlanDeRaccordement

In a way yes but not how you’ve said it. Men have weaponised the concepts of feminist theory against women. So no, women did not “cause” the trans cluster we find ourselves in and it’s not comeuppance or anything justified. It’s simply that our own weapons are being used against us. Which is a typical man thing if you think about it long enough. Best defence is to go on offensive etc.

This 100%, Though to be fair, those men did have alot of help from a few women (very much the none feminist varity).

feminists have been attacking male spaces attempting to help women rightly gain access to spaces which are centres of information, networking and power for years

Fixed.

@AssassinatedBeauty

By "male spaces" do they mean spaces that have traditionally excluded women due to those places being places of privilege, power and influence??

This is better than anything I was trying to write about how I feel about this.

Women have been traditionally excluded from "mens spaces" - any space which hosts power, privilege, and influence - and where men are not typically vulnerable and are usually in the majority.

But now some men (and unfortunately some women) are twisting this so that men can comfortably infiltrate women's spaces - including any single sex space where women may be vulnerable, naked, powerless, or alone.

Male Only spaces tend to be mens clubs, golf clubs, Freemasons, etc. Places where deals are done, business is discussed, power happens, etc.

Women only places tend to be places of refuge for women who need to escape from or recover from male violence. Or places where they are vulnerable and need to be safe.

There's no symmetry. Women wanting access to the first, and men wanting access to the second are both about the imbalance of power in favour of men.

It's certainly absolutely zero surprise to me, that men don't get it.

Oh you lot are so clever. I wish I could articulate it like that.

I just bumbled something about feminists trying to be inclusive and that they had good intentions.

But it’s true that the things we’ve tried to gain access to are completely different and for different reasons.

Men have weaponised the concepts of feminist theory against women.

I love this too. But when I’m arguing I find it hard to say stuff like that cos it sounds so strong.

Basically I’m crap at arguing and need a mumsnet earpiece!

@Datun

Male Only spaces tend to be mens clubs, golf clubs, Freemasons, etc. Places where deals are done, business is discussed, power happens, etc.

Women only places tend to be places of refuge for women who need to escape from or recover from male violence. Or places where they are vulnerable and need to be safe.

There's no symmetry. Women wanting access to the first, and men wanting access to the second are both about the imbalance of power in favour of men.

It's certainly absolutely zero surprise to me, that men don't get it.

Exactly!

Feminists, strangely, haven't been fighting for access to male toilets, male prisons, male hospital wards, male changing rooms. Because we already have our own.

So why are men fighting for access to ours when they already have their own.

@Datun has absolutely hit it on the head.

Also, there's a feeling among incels (and less vocally in some other less openly misogynistic men) that women have it 'easy'. That women can capitalise on their bodies, are the gatekeepers of sex and get to give it all up to be 'kept by a man'. They seem to see women as getting more than their fair share and are secretly (or not so secretly) gleeful to see them get what they see as their comeuppance. Especially feminists, who they see as the mouthpiece of this entitlement.

Are you trying to compare gentlemen clubs to bathrooms?!

To sum up: The men are manspreading all over the place and need a good wallop in the bollocks with a heavy handbag.

Unfortunately they are trying to wrest the handbag off us so they can hit us round the head with it.
But men should know that it is very hard to separate a woman from her handbag and they will regret trying. A

That’s what I see too wait a huge amount of gloating by MRA who think it’s hilarious that women are having their spaces taken away. They couldn’t give a stuff about trans issues, they just enjoy watching women struggle

It kind of makes sense to me in a way.

Partly because of the slightly bizarre-seeming phase that some (young) feminists went through of refusing to acknowledge biological differences in strength. Partly because as we know, single-sex spaces have a certain vibe, and there were a lot of male-only spaces that, although they had to open up to women because the exclusion entrenched male power, were something of a cultural loss for men, so women losing their single-sex places looks fair on a superficial analysis.

Started writing that post before dinner, finished it off, tapped post, to discover that what I was trying to say had already been said but ten times better

Many men never understood what women actually wanted in the first place. They thought what women wanted was to state there is absolutely no difference between men and women. However now women point out the differences between men and women, stating that sex is real and leads to completely different lived experiences, men become smug and say "that's what we were saying all along, men and women are different... See!"

Yes. It’s like “you feminists wanted equality. Now you’ve got it” or “you feminists are always saying that men and women are the same. So reap what you sow!”

The former is ignorant of how equality is achieved. The latter is a strawman of what feminism has been fighting for.

Unless, somewhere in the history of feminism, women did assert that men and women were the same.

It does do my head in a bit.

This is going to be a useful thread because I'm seeing that gloating more and more online.

a mumsnet earpiece

OMG yes, this is exactly what I need when I'm jabbering away ineffectually. Is that your own clever phrase, Lessthanaballpark?

I’ve seen a lot of bollocks about how we feminists have been saying there’s no difference between men and women for years, “so here’s your equality, enjoy” etc

I’ve tried explaining on more than one occasion that we never said we were physically as strong or exactly the same, just that we deserved the same opportunities and that we shouldn’t be disadvantaged because of our (obviously) smaller and less muscular bodies, which also bear the brunt of family life. But the comeback is always something about women being sent to the front line in war if we want equality, or that men in women’s sport is fine as that’s our equality right there etc.

People will twist anything to make it say what they want it to say and if that means twisting feminism to make it work against women they’ll do that too.

@Mrsjamin

Many men never understood what women actually wanted in the first place. They thought what women wanted was to state there is absolutely no difference between men and women. However now women point out the differences between men and women, stating that sex is real and leads to completely different lived experiences, men become smug and say "that's what we were saying all along, men and women are different... See!"

Yes this! As if by saying that we need separate changing rooms we’re also admitting that we’re also unfit to hold public office and should be kept in the kitchen!

And what the TRA agenda has done is given a platform for those who truly despise women to say all the abhorrent things they believe (which would have been unthinkable to say quite so openly even 5 years ago) under the guise of being 'inclusive'. Add to this their joy in the chilling effect of being able to scream 'bigot!' at women fighting to retain their rights as well as being able to make violent death and rape threats without consequences or censure.

It's a perfect utopia for those who utterly hate women. The hatred has always been there, just bubbling under the surface. Now it's socially acceptable and if anything, actively encouraged.

a mumsnet earpiece

OMG yes, this is exactly what I need when I'm jabbering away ineffectually. Is that your own clever phrase, Lessthanaballpark?

Haha thanks yes. It’s just I’m so shit at arguing because I am always so worried about offending men or not wanting to look like a bigot and I left my logically coherent argument in the shower!

I can’t say “just hold on whilst I nip to the loo and consult mumsnet” 😂

So a mumsnet earpiece is what is needed!