Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have feminists brought this upon themselves?

302 replies

Lessthanaballpark · 09/08/2021 20:40

I’ve heard this opinion so much lately, mostly amongst men who seem to be enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

The opinion is that feminists have been attacking male spaces for years and now are getting their comeuppance.

Or that we’ve created the language of inclusion and gender that has led to this.

It’s a mean spirited attitude for sure. But is there any truth to it? Has feminism hoisted itself with its own petard?

OP posts:
Felix125 · 10/08/2021 02:00

@Enough4me

If women set up new clubs, men who ID as women will demand access. They want validation for their feelings above biological differences.
I don't think you get many men wanting to members of the WI and I don't recall any pressure being put on the WI to allow males to join.

If women want to set their own sports club up - great. Again, I don't think you will have many men wanting access if they have their own clubs.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 02:02

Over 10 years ago I saw a gym lose a small women's area, not because of TW at this point, but because men said it was sexist.
Women trying to set something up now would be destroyed.

Aparallaxia · 10/08/2021 02:09

There's are at least two bloody good reasons why women didn't found their own large, powerful sports' clubs, social clubs, and other women-only organizations.

One is money. The other is time.

It takes money and time to construct and maintain an organization; even to buy or construct a meeting-place can be prohibitively expensive. If you have 8 children and a husband and only one skivvy, you really won't have very much time or money... and if you're working-class you may have a full-time job and no servants at all. And of course women have been and in many places continue to be overwhelmingly dependent on their husbands for money, especially before the 1871/1882 acts in the UK. Yes, history has examples of women who organized, often militantly—but these were almost never working-class women, they were middle- or upper-class women, who had servants to do the household chores, and who often had money of their own; or their husbands were sympathetic and put money into their wives' "work". For example, Emmeline Pankhurst was supported by her husband both financially and practically early on, allowing her to begin her work for the female vote. Florence Nightingale was supported by her father, who was very wealthy. I am sure there are far more knowledgeable Mumsnetters who can supply more examples of women whose "work" for women was structured in this way—I mean by financial and class privileges or restrictions.

Women who wanted to meet in their own home would have needed their husband's permission. The WI was acceptable because it was non-political (in the conventional sense—non-party-political) and concerned only with traditionally female activities. It wasn't until the 60s and 70s that feminists began organizing groups in order to meet just as women, not as housewives or as nurses or as teachers, and women began to work outside the home and to want to control the money they earned. But it is within living memory [!] that a married woman couldn't write a cheque, let alone get a mortgage, without her husband's consent.

You might like to compare the endowments of the traditionally male and female Colleges at Oxbridge to get some idea of how far down the scale women have been—even the educated ones who managed to get to University.

Felix125 · 10/08/2021 02:10

@Waitwhat23

Was there a vote for WI members? I'm not a member so can't comment - perhaps another poster will be able to advise.

Girl Guiding insists that it remains single sex when it has in fact become mixed sex but without the appropriate safeguarding to match. One Guider is fighting her expulsion from the organisation for raising concerns and their social media deletes any dissenting opinions. Democratic?

Given the hate focused towards any group who attempt to state themselves as single sex (groups for lesbians have been particularly badly targeted by this), women who have been ousted from organisations set up for their needs don't particularly want to be targeted for threats and being 'cancelled'.

If the Girl Guide movement insists its single sex - and there are examples of boys being members, then it will go against its own constitution and can be fought against. If they are going against their own constitution, then i suggest who ever is running the Girl Guide movement is inept.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/08/2021 02:11

@Enough4me

Over 10 years ago I saw a gym lose a small women's area, not because of TW at this point, but because men said it was sexist. Women trying to set something up now would be destroyed.
There was this case as well.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2311098/Peter-Lloyd-Why-Im-suing-gym-sexist-women-hours.html

Felix125 · 10/08/2021 02:13

@Enough4me

Over 10 years ago I saw a gym lose a small women's area, not because of TW at this point, but because men said it was sexist. Women trying to set something up now would be destroyed.
Is this not an example of equality?

So male & female members have access to the same parts of the gym all the time.

If both male & female members are paying the same fees, why should one group not be allowed to use a certain area?

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2021 02:16

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45642054

ControView · 10/08/2021 02:17

Feminists have normalised the victimhood narrative. Usually mendaciously. Is it any wonder other so-called marginalised groups have co-opted victimhood?

Felix125 · 10/08/2021 02:26

Aparallaxia - I don't quite follow your argument. If you were working class back then with a family & no money then you wouldn't be on a golf course - and that would be the case for both males and females.

The sports club set up by men back then would have needed money to get them going. So, if you are a wealthy upper class husband and wife with servants to tend to the children, then the female would have the money to set a club up too.

I don't think its ever been a written law that a wife required her husbands permission to use their house to meet up with other women. If occurrences like this did occur, then it would be down to the marriage if they had such rules. But i wouldn't have thought they were bands of husbands banning their wives from meeting up with other females.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 02:28

@Felix125 it was one small room which was more of a store room, no windows, floor mats and small hand weights. Women could relax, women in headscarves who were never in the gym before appeared (not that I suggest women should wear any clothing that does restrict them, but that they could not have attended the main area), the room was used by up to 10 at at time. The gym was large, men spread out across the other areas and had space.

The equality was that women didn't have to be next to grunting men trying to get their attention, didn't need to be reminded to smile, have looks up and down to assess their physique and ratings through 'just being friendly' or 'bit of banter' comments.

Equality isn't exactly the same as sexes aren't exactly the same.

HelgaDownUnder · 10/08/2021 02:37

@FictionalCharacter

Very well said *@Datun*

Women and girls need private spaces where they are protected from unwanted attention and violence from men. Men and boys have never needed spaces where they’re protected from women. They have no idea how it feels.

By definition, no one knows how it feels to be someone else. The fact that other people don't know how it feels to be you, doesn't give you the corner on declaring what they need. For what it's worth, clearly men do not need protecting physically from women, but that doesn't mean many men won't benefit from the dynamic of male only spaces. 'Only I know what's good for me, but I also know what's good for you' isn't really helpful and doesn't come across as fair. If that's what men are hearing no wonder they're smug about the loss of women-only spaces.
Felix125 · 10/08/2021 02:37

[quote Waitwhat23]www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45642054[/quote]
Ah right - so they have a constitution which specifically deals with equality and diversity. So has this part of the constitution been breached by having a trans member?

And presumably, the members of the Girl Guide movement (or the parents) read the constitution before joining and were happy with their diversity policy?

So you have a club, with a large membership who are happy with the E&D rules of the club and the majority do not want to change these rules?

I would say that was democratic

Felix125 · 10/08/2021 02:46

[quote Enough4me]@Felix125 it was one small room which was more of a store room, no windows, floor mats and small hand weights. Women could relax, women in headscarves who were never in the gym before appeared (not that I suggest women should wear any clothing that does restrict them, but that they could not have attended the main area), the room was used by up to 10 at at time. The gym was large, men spread out across the other areas and had space.

The equality was that women didn't have to be next to grunting men trying to get their attention, didn't need to be reminded to smile, have looks up and down to assess their physique and ratings through 'just being friendly' or 'bit of banter' comments.

Equality isn't exactly the same as sexes aren't exactly the same.[/quote]
If they didn't like being near men that much, why join the gym in the first place knowing it was mixed? Why not join a female only gym?

If it was used by up to 10 at a time i would say it was bigger than a store room.

I have posted another thread where there was a suggestion at the gym i am in - of making the afternoons female only for the entire gym. Probably wont go ahead but the principle is similar - in that i am paying the same fee and having restricted access

BeeOnADandelion · 10/08/2021 02:47

I don't think you get many men wanting to members of the WI and I don't recall any pressure being put on the WI to allow males to join.

If women want to set their own sports club up - great. Again, I don't think you will have many men wanting access if they have their own clubs

Such a shame the males don't share that viewpoint expressed in you last paragraph when it comes to toilets and changing rooms isn't it. Where males also have their own spaces but seem determined to gain access to the females spaces.

Sounds like there's not much interest from males wanting to access female only spaces, unless females are vulnerable in those spaces. Or unless there's some other way the males can have power over the females eg the opportunity for those male members to win sports competitions, or joining a females talk group for the opportunity of hogging the conversation or silencing females who simply don't want to share their thoughts on sensitive subjects whilst in the presence of males.

No, if theres no chance to go on a power trip, if all that's on offer is the opportunity to be part of a female team's sport, or to sit around chatting about ordinary events and listening to public speakers, the males aren't interested in joining those groups and situations.

SusannahMartin · 10/08/2021 02:51

I know this will be very unpopular but I do actually think that feminism brought in a lot of these concepts that are now causing such distress for women. Identity politics seems to be ripped in the women's movement. And intersectionality. And lived experience over expertise. And oppression Olympics.

SusannahMartin · 10/08/2021 02:51

Rooted not ripped!

HelgaDownUnder · 10/08/2021 03:40

@SusannahMartin

I know this will be very unpopular but I do actually think that feminism brought in a lot of these concepts that are now causing such distress for women. Identity politics seems to be ripped in the women's movement. And intersectionality. And lived experience over expertise. And oppression Olympics.
I agree totally with your comment about 'lived experience'. Every single person has their own lived experience. No one's is more or less valid, and no two are exactly alike. Using any person's lived experience as a basis for anything other than sharing anecdotes, let alone forming public policy that impacts on everyone, is incoherent.
wellbehavedwomen · 10/08/2021 03:51

@Felix125

Aparallaxia - I don't quite follow your argument. If you were working class back then with a family & no money then you wouldn't be on a golf course - and that would be the case for both males and females.

The sports club set up by men back then would have needed money to get them going. So, if you are a wealthy upper class husband and wife with servants to tend to the children, then the female would have the money to set a club up too.

I don't think its ever been a written law that a wife required her husbands permission to use their house to meet up with other women. If occurrences like this did occur, then it would be down to the marriage if they had such rules. But i wouldn't have thought they were bands of husbands banning their wives from meeting up with other females.

Google the law of coverture, maybe?

Blackstone: "In law, husband and wife are one person, and that person is the husband."

Women couldn't form contracts, own property, hold money, or retain custody of their own infant children if they had a living father or husband in the frame. The man had complete power. A man could divorce a woman for a single fact, say adultery - but she had to prove two facts: adultery, plus either cruelty, or desertion. And he had no obligation to support her, should she divorce him, despite her having proven appalling ill-treatment, and she had no right to ever see any children of the marriage again (actually, she had no right to do so whether married or divorced, until a shocking divorce case allowed the Custody of Infants Act in 1839, which meant a woman had a right to petition a court to be allowed to retain children until they were 7... if her conduct were spotless, naturally). So unless her parents supported her, and she had no children, she was absolutely trapped (not to mention that a divorce, for a very long time, took a huge amount of money, and women couldn't own any in their own name - are you seeing a problem, yet?) Men also had the legal right to beat their wives as 'reasonable chastisement' until a case called R v Jackson in 1891, and they had the right to rape their wives, even if separated, until the 1990s. No, that's not a typo. Yes, I do mean less than 30 years ago.

And you're assuming all the pressures were from a spouse alone, and not a society that regarded the above fit and proper. Upper class women, as middle and lower class, had to conform. If they didn't, they could be - and some were - deemed insane, and hospitalised. That could be done for all manner of reasons ('hysteria' was a literal diagnosis - thought to be caused by a 'wandering womb' and leading to a very female-specific form of insanity). Women's place was very stridently and firmly supported by the social structures of the time - all, of course, male-dominated, but supported by plenty of women who recognised their own social standing relied upon their doing so.

Women were, in effect, slaves unless their husbands died, because those were the only cases in which they were legally deemed 'femme sole' - women in their own right. In fact the lack of legal personhood was a large part of why the law of trusts originally existed: to hold money for minors, and women, neither of whom had legal standing of their own.

The Married Women's Property Act was in 1882. But my mother's tax records from employment were being sent to her husband in the 1980s - not to her directly. Which was, in fairness, only a decade after the Equal Pay Act, and five years after the Sex Discrimination Act, so what was her issue. Hmm And while women's colleges existed at Cambridge from the late 19th century, women weren't actually awarded degrees at Cambridge until the 1950s. We have the same monarch on the throne today, so yes, very much living memory.

Women had to have a man's consent to do pretty much anything, for an awfully long time, and while laws can and do change, society still moves more slowly. Women had almost no rights for an awfully long time. It's baffling, the degree of ignorance around this. "Why didn't women just set up their own FA..." in the 1920s. Are you for real?

And you think it's all fine now, do you? We live in a society where fewer than 2% of women who report rapes to the police see any charges made against their attacker. Those are just the ones who report - and we're talking charges. Not convictions. Yet nobody seems to give much of a shit. Spousal abuse is so common, we're looking at around 3 murders a week. Those are just the cases so serious, the woman ends up dead; do you really think it's likely that the vast majority of intimate partner abuse doesn't fall short of that? Did you know women are five times more likely than a man to suffer a sexual assault, and a hundred times less likely to perpetrate one? Have you looked recently at the stats for women in senior roles, across every field? Did you know that the FTSE 350 companies have just 17 women CEOs? Did you know we have the lowest proportion of female judges in Europe, with fewer than a quarter at the most senior levels? We have a similar number in Cabinet. These stats are repeated across pretty well every field. So. Do you believe that women are somehow less intelligent, less capable, less able?

We don't think all men are scary aggressive predators. I mean, my husband and son are two of the loveliest, gentlest, most thoughtful people I've ever met. It's just that all scary aggressive predators are men, and they don't come with it stamped on their foreheads, so we are wary with strangers, especially. We are smaller and weaker physically than men, as we've not been through male puberty. So we're more vulnerable. That knowledge isn't something you turn on and off like a switch. So sometimes, the only way you can truly relax is when you have a single sex space. Changing, or where you're not wearing much generally, is definitely one of those times and spaces.

I have no issue whatsoever with men having single sex gyms, or a single sex space within a gym. I can appreciate that at times it's just more comfortable and relaxing to have time with your own sex, for men as well as women. But there's a difference between say arguing that the House of Commons should be single sex, where clearly that would be of huge detriment to women as a group, and saying that a sauna should be, where it's entirely reasonable, whether men or women, that people don't like being naked with opposite sex strangers. Surely you understand the difference - context is important. No?

BrozTito · 10/08/2021 04:11

Its down to a lot of conservative types thinking trans ideology has been some sort of subset of feminism. Leave the morons to it.

Harriedharriet · 10/08/2021 04:34

@Lessthanaballpark

Oh you lot are so clever. I wish I could articulate it like that.

I just bumbled something about feminists trying to be inclusive and that they had good intentions.

But it’s true that the things we’ve tried to gain access to are completely different and for different reasons.

Men have weaponised the concepts of feminist theory against women.

I love this too. But when I’m arguing I find it hard to say stuff like that cos it sounds so strong.

Basically I’m crap at arguing and need a mumsnet earpiece!

Same for me OP. I read a lot here and elsewhere, and try my best but WISH that I could magic up one of these darlings when I need them!
HeresAMirror · 10/08/2021 06:04

Felix I often think the same about disabled people.

If they want equality, what's with all the demands for access ramps to be put in everywhere, disabled toilets, use of laptops in exams, extra time in assessments, and all manner of "reasonable adjustments" that aren't available to able-bodied people?

Honestly, I think we should all start identifying as disabled and get in on all of that to level the playing field for able-bodied people. After all, they wanted equality!

(Note for the hard-of-understanding: equity is not always achieved by giving everyone exactly the same resources).

HelgaDownUnder · 10/08/2021 07:44

HeresAMirror

The issue in gender politics about spaces is rarely about resources, it's more about principle.

A better analogy would be if wheelchair uses declared the concept of stairs to be offensive. People could have important conversations or so anything on stairs and the wheelchair user would be automatically excluded.
So, stairs become taboo, people are socially shamed for using them. They are roped off, councils quietly begin updating their building policies to discourage their use.
So vast numbers of people are shuffled, resentfully onto ramps.
Then some new fad comes along and ramps become the new stairs. At this point a bunch of resentful ramp users jump up shouting 'sucks be to you: now you know it feels...'

Datun · 10/08/2021 08:33

Quite wellbehavedwomen. And thank you for your detailed list. It's as though women's oppression has completely bypassed by some people, mostly men funnily enough.

I mean it only took seventeen years of hard campaigning to have rape within marriage made illegal in the 1990's. Silly women - why didn't they just start their own government /police force/judiciary.

I don't think you get many men wanting to members of the WI and I don't recall any pressure being put on the WI to allow males to join.

felix you cant be serious? Every single female space, organisation, service is being targeted by men. As is the very concept of biological sex.

We have MPs deciding that diversity and inclusion can be demonstrated by a Parliament made up of 50% men and 50% transwomen. We had a Labour leader candidate rendered splutteringly unable to even define the word woman.

Women were, and are, excluded from power. Now the very concept of woman is to be eliminated. Linguistically, legally and politically.

Women's representation across the board can now be held by men. The male CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre has asserted that the women using the service need to 'reframe their trauma' to accept men are women, lest they be called bigots.

And no, it's not called feminism. 🙄

RoyalCorgi · 10/08/2021 08:43

Felix really needs to go and read some history books.

But there is no point in arguing with him here. He is wilfully stupid - however much you batter him with logic and evidence he will still cling to his original position, long after it has been conclusively proved to be false.

After all, how could a feminist board made up of highly educated women possibly know more about women's history than a man?

Datun · 10/08/2021 08:50

@RoyalCorgi

Felix really needs to go and read some history books.

But there is no point in arguing with him here. He is wilfully stupid - however much you batter him with logic and evidence he will still cling to his original position, long after it has been conclusively proved to be false.

After all, how could a feminist board made up of highly educated women possibly know more about women's history than a man?

Ah, ok. I'm not familiar with Felix specifically, but, of course, the attitude is widespread among certain men.

Sometimes I'm not at all surprised at how long it took women to change laws.

Swipe left for the next trending thread