Have feminists brought this upon themselves?

[Lessthanaballpark]

I’ve heard this opinion so much lately, mostly amongst men who seem to be enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

The opinion is that feminists have been attacking male spaces for years and now are getting their comeuppance.

Or that we’ve created the language of inclusion and gender that has led to this.

It’s a mean spirited attitude for sure. But is there any truth to it? Has feminism hoisted itself with its own petard?

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Felix125

There was nothing stopping women from forming women only golf clubs, working women's clubs etc - they just chose not to - or there wasn't sufficient of women to make it viable.

Is that so.

extract

A 12-year-old girl sat on a bus, flanked by her parents, en route from Prescot to Manchester for a football match. She wasn’t going to watch; she was going to play. Unremarkable? Today, certainly. But it was the 1950s, and girls and women were under strict edicts not to play – from none other than the FA.

That 12-year-old girl was Sylvia Gore. She had always loved football, and as a child would kick a ball around with her father and uncle, learning the techniques like millions of other children the world over. “The local football team, Prescot Cables, used to look for me at half-time so I could come on and kick a ball in the goal – they accepted it,” Gore said in May 2016. “A lot of men up and down the country didn’t.”

The FA’s ban on women’s football began in 1921 – a kneejerk reaction to its popularity. The world-famous Dick, Kerr’s Ladies – plus a handful of other outfits – had helped to fill the gap left by the Football League’s hiatus during the First World War, and attracted huge attendances to their games as they raised money for charity.

Up to this point, women’s football had been running almost parallel to the men’s game. A trailblazing player using the pseudonym Nettie Honeyball had formed the British Ladies’ Football Club at the end of the 19th century, and her team toured the country to play exhibition games. Although spectators may have originally turned up to delight in the undignified spectacle, reports from the time suggest they found themselves enthralled by the quality of play.These games were intermittent, though, and didn’t detract or distract from the important business of men’s football. Dick, Kerr’s Ladies and their contemporaries were the real threat. The FA lost patience with the women after Dick, Kerr’s and St Helens brought 53,000 fans through the Goodison Park turnstiles on Boxing Day 1920, believed at the time to be the largest gate at any football match in England since records began.

One year later, English football’s governing body passed a resolution declaring the sport “quite unsuitable for females” and informing men’s clubs that they should refuse to let women play at their grounds. The achievements of Dick, Kerr’s Ladies were pushed into the shadows by a footballing establishment that was embarrassed by women’s success.

Continues: www.fourfourtwo.com/features/womens-football-banned-england-50-years-fa-world-cup-history[/quote]
There's a chapter on this in the Difficult Women book by Helen Lewis.

It's an interesting book and I felt this chapter highlighted what could be, women excelling in sport and enthusiastically supported by men and women alike, if some men could just allow women to have anything at all without getting their penis in a twist about it.

It's genuinely astounding that the erosion of single sex social groups for women and girls is being repeated described as
democratic. To be clear -

• Girl Guiding has been a single sex organisation for decades.
• Guiders (volunteers who give up their own time to run packs) have often been in the movement since their own childhoods, often for two decades or more.
• the Scouting movement has been a mixed sex organisation for many years and has the safeguarding procedures to match this
• the Girl Guiding movement make the concept that they are still single sex a big part of their USP because many girls want a single sex space for many reasons (time away from the male gaze being one) but it is now mixed sex. However Girl Guiding deny this because TWAW. Unless parents are following this discussion (and there are many people who misunderstand what a 'transgirl' is), then they will be unaware.
• They have not changed their safeguarding rules and in fact declare that parents should not be informed if a male will be sharing changing and sleeping spaces with their girls.
• Guiders (the ones who have often been in the movement since they were themselves children) who have raised these safeguarding issues have been expelled from the organisation.
• Girl Guiding have silenced discussion on the issue. Many Guiders have said privately that they are unhappy because they don't wish to let down their girls but will leave if the issue becomes a reality in their groups. There are already huge waiting lists for Guiding groups so this will soon lead to groups shutting down due to lack of leaders.

It's the beginning of the end for Girl Guiding. As someone who was involved in the movement during my entire childhood, I intended sending my girls. I won't now until they have sorted out their safeguarding issues.

their joy in the chilling effect of being able to scream 'bigot!' at women fighting to retain their rights

There's a special place for men enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

@wellbehavedwomen excellent post. I can to a certain extent understand that not everyone is aware that some of the more recent changes (rape within marriage being legal until the 1990's for example) were so recent because it seems so outlandish but some people seem to be determined to deny that women as a group have ever experienced oppression because of their sex class.

@Lessthanaballpark

I’ve heard this opinion so much lately, mostly amongst men who seem to be enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

The opinion is that feminists have been attacking male spaces for years and now are getting their comeuppance.

Or that we’ve created the language of inclusion and gender that has led to this.

It’s a mean spirited attitude for sure. But is there any truth to it? Has feminism hoisted itself with its own petard?

Yes, right wing men often see it as a battle between an old enemy and a new enemy, and reach for the popcorn. TRAs have adopted much of the language and thrust of those men (feminazi, breaching women's boundaries etc), though yes, they have also appropriated and reworked second-wave standpoint theory.

[quote Waitwhat23]**@wellbehavedwomen* excellent post. I can to a certain extent understand that not everyone is aware that some of the more recent changes (rape within marriage being legal until the 1990's for example) were* so recent because it seems so outlandish but some people seem to be determined to deny that women as a group have ever experienced oppression because of their sex class.[/quote]
I believe it was only in the 1980s that a pub landlord could, quite legitimately, refuse to serve women on the basis of the fact that they were women.

Certainly, when I was much younger, I was aware that people slightly older than me did sometimes frown on women drinking in pubs and bars, especially alone. If you were to meet a boyfriend, you waited outside until he showed up.

It was only when I discovered feminism, that I realised that it was all part of the same system of sexism that was entirely deliberate.

Unfortunately this is the kind of thread that brings a certain kind of lurker out of the woodwork
Personally if a man said that to me I'd make a mental note that he wasn't "my kind of person" and engage with him as little as possible. I'd assume he'd been hanging around on manosphere type websites and got some very troubling attitudes, and also that he wasn't all that bright.

Unfortunately you can't argue with stupid, you definitely shouldn't be feeling like you are the stupid one for not immediately knowing how to rebut such idiocy.

Place marking OP for my own learning. I also wish I had a MN earpiece.

@datun 1982. There had to be a court case! www.stylist.co.uk/visible-women/law-lawyer-feminism-today-history-gender-pay-gap-abortion-equality/188525

But when I’m arguing I find it hard to say stuff like that cos it sounds so strong. That's part of the social training you had from early childhood.

It is also oe of the tinigs that sme men identify as 'proof' that some women are getting their just desserts. We get stronger, they describe it as aggressive and feel entitled to shove back!

[quote Waitwhat23]@datun 1982. There had to be a court case! www.stylist.co.uk/visible-women/law-lawyer-feminism-today-history-gender-pay-gap-abortion-equality/188525[/quote]
It's extraordinary, isn't it!

1991 Rape within marriage becomes a crime

Before this date, it was legal for a man to rape his wife because he had “conjugal rights”. It took another decade after this ruling for the word “consent” to finally be given a legal definition, under the 2003 Sexual Offences Act.

Little wonder that the concept of consent doesn't seem to have impacted on the minds of many men. They would have grown up in era where it was meaningless.

Although laws change, it takes a lot longer to change attitudes.

Look at the number of men who absolutely consider sex from a partner as their 'right'.

1982 Women can’t be refused service in pubs

Up until 1982, it was perfectly legal to refuse to serve women in British pubs, which were traditionally “male environments”.

Just for the likes of felix. Even normal bars excluded women.

I suppose they could always have bought their own pubs. Oh no wait, they couldn't get a mortgage without the signature of a man.

Did anything in the writings of Karl Marx lead to the red terror in 20th century Stalinist Russia or the cultural revolution in China?

Depends who you ask. Every communist I’ve ever met assures me Stalinism had absolutely nothing to do with Marxism and that real communism hasn’t even been tried yet? Everyone else who knows anything about it however tells me that bad ideas in the communist manifesto got taken to their logical conclusion in the real world producing unintended consequences. Who to believe?

For what it’s worth I think modern feminism did logically lead to the modern trans rights movement and that it is telling that some leading lights in the gender critical movement such as Posie Parker no longer call themselves feminists.

I am not comparing feminism or trans rights to communism or anything else that happened in the 20th century. I’m just saying that ideas getting first accepted and then taken to their logical conclusions with unintended consequences and unintended results seems to be something that happens again and again. How well do we really think an idea through before we accept it? Maybe we should be

Maybe we should believe less and think more.

I remember my MIL telling me that she tried to buy a bike to enable her to cycle to work as a teacher. She earned her own money, but they refused to allow her hire purchase without her husband’s permission.

“ There was nothing stopping women from forming women only golf clubs, working women's clubs etc - they just chose not to - or there wasn't sufficient of women to make it viable.”

Women’s golf clubs and clubs do exist, they are very few and now often allow transwomen.
The real issue with single sex male clubs is that they are where power is concentrated. A women’s club can’t hope to replicate that.

Ever wondered what the female equivalent of Eton College is?
There isn’t one.
A very wealthy school that, for centuries, has trained many of the leaders of our country - and women do not have access.
Even girls’ education in this country is still so unequal and unfair.

For what it’s worth I think modern feminism did logically lead to the modern trans rights movement

Can you explain how?

It's my understanding that Press for Change, and the Beaumont Society (an organisation for cross dressing men and their wives), were behind the UK push for transgenderism to be accepted legally. Decades ago.

And that in countries like America where healthcare is commercial, pharmaceutical companies will benefit from the medicalisation associated with transgenderism.

What part of feminism leads homosexual men with gender dysphoria and autogynephiles to seek validation and extra civil rights?

@wellbehavedwomen an outstanding post ❤️ that could help every teenager to understand the history

I'm saving this to share with others.

some leading lights in the gender critical movement such as Posie Parker no longer call themselves feminists
Posie posted here "before she was famous" and never called herself a feminist. In fact IIRC she rejected that label.

Gender critical and feminist are not the same thing.

[quote FindTheTruth]@wellbehavedwomen an outstanding post ❤️ that could help every teenager to understand the history

I'm saving this to share with others.[/quote]
I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools.

At the time, I though it useful to give boys the context in which women and girls have had to fight against sexism.

But it's become fairly evident that there are awful lot of young women who don't realise how recently we have won these rights too. And how precarious they are.

It's understandable, I know. Every generation takes what they have for granted. I did, we all do. When you're young ten years ago seems like ancient history. When you're older, it's the age of half your wardrobe.

There is a type of man who thinks the height of humour is "equal rights, equal lefts" I.e. women want equality so now we're allowed to beat them up.

There is no point engaging with this man, you won't change their mind and they will enjoy playing devil's advocate as to whether you should have basic rights. You'd be best spending your time doing pretty much anything else.

Gender critical and feminist are not the same thing.

I strongly disagree. I think gender criticism - criticism of stereotypical gender roles - is fundamental to feminism.

However, many people who want single sex spaces are not gender critical, and it's possible to be critical of gender and not have strong feelings about single sex spaces. Logically I think it's difficult to argue that the law shouldn't protect some single sex spaces, but people have different levels of personal comfort and draw the line in different places. Many people who want single sex spaces for faith reasons would not self describe as feminists.

I don't know whether Posie Parker is gender critical. She does clearly have strong feelings about single sex spaces.

I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools

Completely agree and I think boys would be more supportive and girls less eager to be kind and give away rights

Feminists that I know, and I, have been kicking back and fighting against, broadly, 2 things.

1. not being artificially held back because of our sex - which translates simply to equal opportunity. In my lifetime (in my 60s) we have made a good deal of progress, it has been (too) slow and isn't close to being perfect but it is a lot better in so many respects than it was even 30 years ago.

2. Fighting against gender norms - gender is a social construct. This relates to point 1: if a girl wants to be a welder, that shouldn't be dismissed with "that's for boys". Likewise wearing trousers, having short hair and being assertive (not bossy). Alongside that, of course, we have tried to stamp on "boys don't cry" and campaigned (and still do) for men to have entitlements to, for eg, equal parental leave.

It has been about "invading men's spaces" only as far as: all spaces have historically been for men - "invading" in their eyes, gaining parity in ours.

So no. We didn't bring anything on ourselves. I'm not a TERF, I'm not GC. I'm trans inclusive and what I really want to see is a way of moving forward that doesn't create only winners and losers, but there are some very hard choices to be made and there will always be complainers and people who genuinely may sometimes have to give, where other times they don't.

Men,IMO, aren't involved outside of being supportive and not throwing themselves into something that isn't really their business.