I think I've figured out why the Guilty Feminists feel guilty...

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

@Glinner sent this round today:

"(From a thread by @Forwomenscot) The CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis has said "Sexual violence happens to bigoted people too. But if you bring beliefs that are discriminatory, expect to be challenged on your prejudice. Reframe your trauma" Apparently, survivors are to be "educated" in this service."

The CEO is Mridul Wadhwa, a male person who does not have a GRC and who believes that rape victims orgasm.

The podcast twitter account is blocking everyone who says "WTF?" etc

To understand what's driving these males, why they do it, what the impact is and categorise the conditions so that the public know what they're dealing with

There’s an interesting part of Helen Joyce’s conversation with Julian Vigo on her Savage Minds podcast where HJ is talking about what drives some of the key players in gender ideology to bend the world to their view of themselves. HJ described who many of these players have excelled either in business/the military and have been very, very driven people prior to transition. Couple that sort of personality with the “bravery” it takes to transition signals a cohort of men that are used to getting their own way and being incredibly assertive.

These 'feminists' are despicable people. They are as far from 'kind' as it is possible to get.

I agree. I refuse to be gaslighted that these women are feminists, and women who actually care about women's rights are bigots simply for not believing in their religion.

However companies house does

Thank you! With about three exceptions, most of them seem very young.

interesting part of Helen Joyce’s conversation with Julian Vigo on her Savage Minds podcast

Thanks Pennine, will check it out

That looks like a stonking podcast!

Thanks, I've downloaded them ready for my rage-filled walks.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

It is the job of feminism to revoke that licence, and to step up, and step forward and say, these people are our sisters, these people are our siblings, and we need trans people to be protected

Sorry, DFW, I'm too busy stepping forward to try and protect my female sisters - who are dying at the hands of men at a rate of THREE A WEEK. Week in, week out, there are piles of dead women, and more traumatised and terrified women around them.

How many trans women have been murdered in Scotland since they started keeping records?

Oh yeah, none.

The trans women who have been murdered, and each one is a tragedy and a terrible loss for their friends and family, were all victims of crimes which were not fuelled by transphobia.

I dispute that the trans and NB population are the most vulnerable.

It's easy to see who is most vulnerable in the UK - just count the corpses to figure it out.

In one of Magdalen Berns videos she said over the course of a decade in the UK 8 transwomen had been murdered and all of those were not as a result of them being trans, but murdered by people they know. Over the same period over 20 (I think she said 22) had committed murder.

The most vulnerable line is because in other countries it is very dangerous to be trans and many transwomen in South America are prostituted.

That looks like a stonking podcast!

It's an excellent podcast with some great guests.

The job of feminism is to support males? In what universe is this feminism? I think it is time DFW had a massive rethink on appropriating a movement for her own interests.

Thank you for the transcript. This is where I couldn't listen anymore and switched off, it was DFW response after the 'reframe your trauma' part of the conversation..

And any time we say, one person from this group, did this. Therefore, I can make an assumption about the actions, the future actions, of other people who share this identity.
That is the definition of prejudice. It's pre judging. It's saying, Hey, I had this experience, or I saw this on television or I read this in the paper. And now I prejudge people, if this group is to be more likely to be violent, or predators or in some way or another, they might hurt me.
So I need to exclude them. That is the definition of prejudging or prejudice. You are literally prejudging somebody based on something about their identity that they were born with, that they cannot do anything about. And you cannot glean any information about what somebody will be like, based on what somebody else who may have shared one characteristic with this person, but no others. And that is really, really important. Transwomen are more likely to experience violence, they're more likely to turn up to refuges vulnerable, and also fearful of what their response might be to them at the refuge.

She spectacularly misses the points that 1/ trauma is a condition (a bit like gender disphorya is a condition) no one chooses to have and the hightend anxiety towards the presence of this group of people (ie males), who have already harmed that woman comes from trauma and 2/ men ARE more likely to attack women than other women are, by an alarming rate so no ignorance is not at play here, logic and hyper vigilance stemming from trauma is.

Yes, I should have added the numbers, Another.

Channel 4 Fact checker makes interesting reading. www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

That's from 2018, and AFAIK there has not been anyone killed in the UK who is trans or NB since. Which is a good thing, I'm delighted that the gender non-conforming community is safe here because what goes on in South America is terrifying. To be fair, though, the number of women who are murdered in the line of sex work in Brazil is eye watering, I'm not convinced the deaths of the trans women is entirely gender based or whether it is because sex work is exceptionally dangerous. I am confident that no one works as a prostitute there unless they are desperate, and the reasons people become desperate are well documented and gender differences do not seem to have a protective effect against them.

I'm glad that Holyrood flies the trans flag at half mast every November to mark trans day of remembrance because these people matter and the fact that they are victims of violence because of their identity is worthy of highlighting.

However, there is no flag for the women we lost. There is not even any justice for many of them. Rape is effectively legal in the UK. Refuges have lost funding because they refused to allow male people in. And the CEO of Rape Crisis Edinburgh thinks that some women using the service are more deserving than others.

I would love to hear what Magdalen Berns would have to say about this. She is a great loss, but I am so glad we have her videos because they helped clarify my mind on many things.

She asked us to be brave.

I'm brave enough to write to Rape Crisis and the charities commission and Oscr and DFW. I'm brave enough to post this thread on my FB. I'm brave enough to refuse to accept the erosion of my rights because whilst I have enough security to manage without them all - many women don't.

That's all feminism is, ensuring all women are protected against sexism. And as women=adult females (and, thanks to Maya, I can say that openly as it is a protected belief), well, I feel no obligation to prioritise MW's personal preferences over the women who need the services that MW is supposed to be providing for them.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Deborah Frances-White: We need a massive rethink as a society. And feminism needs a big old rethink on this because if we are not there to protect the most vulnerable members of our group, what are we there for. As you said before Mridul, there is a social licence to treat trans people very badly, to rule them out of employment, to speak in rude ways about them, and to them, for street harassment, there's a social licence, we need to revoke that licence. It is the job of feminism to revoke that licence, and to step up, and step forward and say, these people are our sisters, these people are our siblings, and we need trans people to be protected. And we take that first step today. And if we have some discomfort because of the power structures that raised us, and that evolved us and evolved our thinking, that are in themselves structurally violent, then we need to do that work on ourselves, to get more comfortable with doing the right thing, and protecting kind people who want a break and desperately need a break from our society.

Kemah Bob:
I think it's a moment to check your privilege. And I think we've gotten to an interesting place in society where we're acknowledging the structural inequalities that women face across the board. And I think it's a struggle for some people to acknowledge that someone's had to face something, perhaps even more challenging than you have. Because my life is the hardest. And I think it's such a cop out, I think we just have to do better across the board. And I know you were saying kind people, but also mean people, mean trans people deserve care too.

Oh they can both fuck off forever. Sorry, but I am so angry at these stupid, self righteous idiots. How DARE they call themselves feminists? Fuck. Off.

@Anotheruser02

Thank you for the transcript. This is where I couldn't listen anymore and switched off, it was DFW response after the 'reframe your trauma' part of the conversation..

And any time we say, one person from this group, did this. Therefore, I can make an assumption about the actions, the future actions, of other people who share this identity.
That is the definition of prejudice. It's pre judging. It's saying, Hey, I had this experience, or I saw this on television or I read this in the paper. And now I prejudge people, if this group is to be more likely to be violent, or predators or in some way or another, they might hurt me.
So I need to exclude them. That is the definition of prejudging or prejudice. You are literally prejudging somebody based on something about their identity that they were born with, that they cannot do anything about. And you cannot glean any information about what somebody will be like, based on what somebody else who may have shared one characteristic with this person, but no others. And that is really, really important. Transwomen are more likely to experience violence, they're more likely to turn up to refuges vulnerable, and also fearful of what their response might be to them at the refuge.

She spectacularly misses the points that 1/ trauma is a condition (a bit like gender disphorya is a condition) no one chooses to have and the hightend anxiety towards the presence of this group of people (ie males), who have already harmed that woman comes from trauma and 2/ men ARE more likely to attack women than other women are, by an alarming rate so no ignorance is not at play here, logic and hyper vigilance stemming from trauma is.

Ha ha ha. You can't generalise about a group based on the actions of one member of that group. Then goes on to generalise about transwomen as a group.

She spectacularly misses the points that 1/ trauma is a condition (a bit like gender disphorya is a condition) no one chooses to have and the hightend anxiety towards the presence of this group of people (ie males), who have already harmed that woman comes from trauma and 2/ men ARE more likely to attack women than other women are, by an alarming rate so no ignorance is not at play here, logic and hyper vigilance stemming from trauma is.

She also dismisses all feminist analysis of male violence with this, parroting a typical MRA talking point, and objects to the basic rules of safeguarding at the same time. It's quite the display of snobbish ignorance.

What I don't understand is, how have these people arrived at the belief that they are morally superior for forcing rape victims to be uncomfortable, scared or humiliated, or submit to Mao style struggle sessions?

And that framing of an abused woman rocking up to a refuge, confident she'll be welcomed in - do these people know anything about what it means to be in crisis?

Anyway, having now read the whole transcript, the two presenters are wholly unable to pose even a single critical question. There's no understanding of what trauma-informed counselling is (it does not include challenging a woman about her political beliefs purely in order to change them). They have very little understanding even of gender, of what being "cisgendered" actually means or no feminist would voluntarily apply that label to herself.

I do not think that we'll be able to reach them. Don't get me wrong, I had a very long, respectful conversation with someone like these two women. It ended amicably and gave us both much to think about. But what that individual believed what my position and arguments were as opposed to what they actually are, it would have taken weeks for me to unpack and unravel all of those inaccurate assumptions. And you'd have to be willing to admit that maybe you might be mistaken. Willing to listen. And I don't think these women are.

What is it with these people who think it's the job of feminists to prioritise the interests of all other marginalised groups over their own?
What's the matter with them?
to women affected by this.

@Anotheruser02

Thank you for the transcript. This is where I couldn't listen anymore and switched off, it was DFW response after the 'reframe your trauma' part of the conversation..

And any time we say, one person from this group, did this. Therefore, I can make an assumption about the actions, the future actions, of other people who share this identity.
That is the definition of prejudice. It's pre judging. It's saying, Hey, I had this experience, or I saw this on television or I read this in the paper. And now I prejudge people, if this group is to be more likely to be violent, or predators or in some way or another, they might hurt me.
So I need to exclude them. That is the definition of prejudging or prejudice. You are literally prejudging somebody based on something about their identity that they were born with, that they cannot do anything about. And you cannot glean any information about what somebody will be like, based on what somebody else who may have shared one characteristic with this person, but no others. And that is really, really important. Transwomen are more likely to experience violence, they're more likely to turn up to refuges vulnerable, and also fearful of what their response might be to them at the refuge.

She spectacularly misses the points that 1/ trauma is a condition (a bit like gender disphorya is a condition) no one chooses to have and the hightend anxiety towards the presence of this group of people (ie males), who have already harmed that woman comes from trauma and 2/ men ARE more likely to attack women than other women are, by an alarming rate so no ignorance is not at play here, logic and hyper vigilance stemming from trauma is.

She doesn't know what she's talking about.

And you know what, I'm not claiming "...one person from this group, did this. Therefore, I can make an assumption about the actions, the future actions, of other people".

I'm judging the actual actions of Mridul Wadhwa.

The words they have spoken and the trauma they want to put raped women through.

Why is DFW fondly imagining that we need to use some hypothetical person on which to judge the behaviour of the person standing right next to them, when it's that person's own behaviour that is the issue?

And recently, there was a really violent, threatening tweet to JK Rowling. And I was like, This isn't helping. And it's not right. And I don't want that. And this is not to say that I don't understand how someone might be provoked to anger if society continues to not listen to their trauma.

I think if you're this far gone that you're rationalising away violent threats of a male against a woman who is after all just asking society to also listen to women's trauma, the way back from that is all but closed.

That's a quote from DFW btw

#AskRapeCrusisScotland is trending on Twitter if anyone can jump on and lend support.

#AskRapeCrisisScotland
Thanks Cismyfatarse. some bloody good questions in there
twitter.com/search?q=%23AskRapeCrisisScotland

What I don't get is, is it a really awful tjkbg, really outrageous and unreasonable, for a vulnerable woman to request a female only rape counsellor.

If, as DFW and many many others claim, then surely it is only a tiny minority of women who will be requesting a woman only, and there will still be many many people happy to use a trans woman counsellor? Surely, as we are always being told, MOST people agree with DFW, so it won't be a problem at all.

Will it?

If, as DFW and many many others claim, then surely it is only a tiny minority of women who will be requesting a woman only, and there will still be many many people happy to use a trans woman counsellor? Surely, as we are always being told, MOST people agree with DFW, so it won't be a problem at all.

Will it?^^

I think most of these people know full well it isn't what most women want and they want to force it to be the only option by minimising it and not acknowledging this.

I think they think that's that stand-up feminism they mentioned in the podcast, forcing women to ignore their discomfort and examine their "cis" privilege

Interesting thread & excellent work done by Women & Girls in Scotland, in trying to identify where female-only help is available & to improve the situation in Scotland.

twitter.com/WG_Scotland/status/1424806794908610570

[quote ifIwerenotanandroid]Interesting thread & excellent work done by Women & Girls in Scotland, in trying to identify where female-only help is available & to improve the situation in Scotland.

twitter.com/WG_Scotland/status/1424806794908610570[/quote]
Absolutely.