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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf

289 replies

ryzen · 03/08/2021 06:43

I thought we were making progress by getting rid of mixed wards. I'm really upset by this. Can I do anything?!

I am a victim of endless sexual abuse and harassment.

I have suffered very much for being female and being physically weaker than most males. I do not want to ever have to end up on a ward with one. I actually hide away now due to the attacks I have suffered in public. I never get a taxi alone. I plan my days around being home before dark.

In all honesty I do avoid men but I feel I should be able to if I want to especially with something as intimate as my healthcare. I've read a report in the times today that says if a female does not want to be next to a trans person then they should be treated as a racist would. I find it disgusting to even compare these scenarios.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 16:29

Jo Bartosch for Spiked
3/08/2021

'Women need their own hospital wards
Trans ideology cannot trump the safety of the vulnerable and frail.'
(extract)
"Nottinghamshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust’s policy states: ‘Just as the Trust will not adapt practice in light of Racist concerns expressed as discomfort, so the Trust will not adapt practice in light of Transphobic concerns expressed as discomfort… This will include such things as use of toilets, changing facilities, and single-sex accommodation.’ (continues)
www.spiked-online.com/2021/08/03/women-need-their-own-hospital-wards/

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 16:37

Baroness Sheila Noakes (Conservative)

twitter.com/1SVN/status/1422566141680103434

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 16:52

Vulvamort via Twitter

"I spoke to a senior NHS manager who told me he would "swear in a court of law" that Andrew Lansley instructed his team to call the policy 'sex' even though the NHS knew it was by Gender Identity.

But in any case, it's documented in NHS meeting minutes and the policy itself.

However, Lansley had a predecessor who had already put trans guidance in place with the NHS.

Step up and take a bow, Surinder Sharma, National Director for Equality and Human
Rights, Department of Health, 2008."

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422575384105820162

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 17:00

However, Lansley had a predecessor who had already put trans guidance in place with the NHS.

Step up and take a bow, Surinder Sharma, National Director for Equality and Human
Rights, Department of Health, 2008."

University of Leicester
Professor Surinder Sharma
Honorary Visiting Fellow
(extract)
"Surinder was appointed as the first National Director for Equality & Human Rights at the Department of Health and the National Health Service in October, 2004. He has worked in the Diversity & Inclusion field for over 35 years, gaining a reputation for innovation, success and excellence. He began his career with the Commission for Racial Equality in March,1978, gaining the strategic knowledge base on which his later career was built. He was elected as a Councillor at Leicester City Council, where he Chaired the Housing Committee, was appointed a Justice of the Peace in 1983, now Chairs, the Leicester Racial Equality Council and was appointed as an Alderman for the City of Leicester in September, 2013.

Surinder's career has taken him to a variety of different organisations where he has won many awards for his work: BBC Television, the Littlewoods Organisation and Ford Motor Company (Europe), where he managed a European Team during a period of radical transformation. He was a Commissioner at the Equal Opportunities Commission, where he Chaired the Legal Committee.

He Co-Chaired of the Conference Board European Work-Life & Diversity Forum, is a Trustee of UNICEF UK, a Trustee of the National Space Centre, appointed as an Independent Person at Leicestershire County Council and Chairs the National Governing Council of the Health & Social Care BME Staff Network. He is a Member of the Ministry of Defence Diversity Advisory Panel, Member of the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills Equality Advisory Group, Council Member of Aston University (where he is Chair of the Ethics Sub-Group, a Member of the Audit and Nominations Committee), was a Member of the Global Advisory Council at Novartis AG in Switzerland, where he was also a consultant to the company on Diversity and Inclusion." (continues)
www2.le.ac.uk/departments/sociology/people/professor-surinder-sharma

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 17:12

Vulvamort via Twitter

"The same sex ward 'bait and switch' policy for gender goes back to 2009, not 2019."*

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422538786781736962

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 17:25

NHS policy document above cites GIRES as evidence base.

See Page 4 onwards of important thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007?pg=4

Anlaf wrote, Sun 24-Feb-19

"Now who knew that GIRES was set up as the charitable arm of Press for Change? I did not.

The Gender Identity Research and Education Society

Press for Change activists Bernard Reed and Yvonne Wingfield have been hard at work setting up a charity, which is now going for registration with the Charity Commission.

The idea is to allow the charity to take on - and expand - the current work of Press for Change in the areas of publication of information, education and training, research and support for students. PFC itself cannot be a charity, being of its nature political, but it makes sense to siphon off some of our activities into a charity, especially as the range of our activities continues to expand.

From the 1997 newsletter
"web.archive.org/web/20000606005635/www.pfc.org.uk/newsltr/nwslet09.htm#sw-trains]]

(Said this before but PfC really were impressively well organised - logging friendly MPs, asking supporters to have face to face meetings with their own MPs, and using formal political structures like a charity and parliamentary forum.)"

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 17:26

Apologies

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20000606005635/www.pfc.org.uk/newsltr/nwslet09.htm#sw-trains" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20000606005635/www.pfc.org.uk/newsltr/nwslet09.htm#sw-trains

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 17:30

Said this before but PfC really were impressively well organised - logging friendly MPs, asking supporters to have face to face meetings with their own MPs, and using formal political structures like a charity and parliamentary forum

Guardian
Patrick Barkham
Tue 22 Jan 2013

'Voices from the trans community: 'There will always be prejudice'

(extract)
"[Stephen] Whittle, who "transitioned" nearly 40 years ago, was one of three trans men and three trans women who did an unusual thing in 1992: they went to meet Liberal Democrat MP Alex Carlile in Westminster. The unusual element was not the meeting but the fact that they travelled together – at the time, trans people never dared to because it increased the likelihood that they would be spotted and abused. These six wanted to start a campaign group; Carlile advised them to avoid the word "transsexual". So, in Grandma Lee's teashop opposite Big Ben, an anodyne name, Press for Change, was chosen." (continues)

Christine Burns is one of a generation who vividly remembers reading about Ashley in the papers when she was a young child. (Ashley appeared in a six-week special in the News of the World: "They were one of the very few who paid me and they behaved impeccably. I was very sad when the News of the World closed," says Ashley.) The existence of someone like her in the public eye was a great comfort for Burns. In the 90s, when she was chair of the Women's Supper Club of the local Conservative party association in Cheshire, she quietly joined Press for Change. Even then, the new activists dared not be openly trans. "The thing that held us back in the 1990s campaigning was that fear of being out," admits Burns. Eventually, she came out in 1995; she jokes that she realised she was more embarrassed to be a member of the Conservative party than openly transsexual.

Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Datun · 03/08/2021 17:38

@Outhere

FFS. Let's revisit the basic tenets of safeguarding again shall we:

Safeguarding is grounded in mitigating against potential risks. It's not a personal value judgement on individuals.

We look at different factors and make decisions based on risk. This is grounded in statistics and facts.

Personal feelings are not part of this analysis, and the vast majority of people are not offended by this.

No one is exempt from this process, again this is not a value judgement on any individual person, it's about the collective.

Single sex wards are a legitimate and sensible approach to mitigating against the risk of sexual assaults in a hospital setting.

I investigate safeguardings in hospital settings. I have investigated sexual assaults. In my experience, unfortunately, hospital trusts are not receptive to safeguarding outcomes and recommendations, even where there is a clear pattern of repeated incidents. I could write a book on it, but for the purposes of this thread, single sex wards are a basic frontline safeguarding tool which help to mitigate against the risk of sexual assault. It really is that simple. It has nothing to do with anyone feelings, or whether someone feels comfortable with sharing their space with the opposite sex or not, safeguarding doesn't (or shouldn't with the current shit show going on) care about your feelings.

The constant pushing and blurring of safeguarding boundaries has got us into this position, and as I've said before, nothing gets my spidey senses tingling more than people who object to safeguarding processes and procedures.

Off to bang my head against a brick wall again. Wtf has happened to safeguarding???

Finally, after many women trying to raise this issue, and Vulvamort doing some spectacular research about the origins of this policy, people are starting to take notice.

I can't help thinking @Outhere that your experience would be invaluable. If you are on Twitter, maybe contact Sheila Noakes, who appears to be taking this whole issue on board? Link below.

twitter.com/1SVN/status/1422566141680103434

The more women who speak about this, the better, particularly those with unique insights.

LoveFall · 03/08/2021 17:40

@DobbyTheHouseElk

I’d hope they wouldn’t be on a gynaecology ward, but I can imagine they could be if they bully their way onto it.

Shocking, what can we do?

When I was in hospital in December in a six bed gyne ward, there was a man in the bed right beside the washroom. I mentioned it to a nurse and was told off basically.

It really bothered me.

This was in Canada.

FindTheTruth · 03/08/2021 17:55

[quote R0wantrees]Vulvamort via Twitter

"I spoke to a senior NHS manager who told me he would "swear in a court of law" that Andrew Lansley instructed his team to call the policy 'sex' even though the NHS knew it was by Gender Identity.

But in any case, it's documented in NHS meeting minutes and the policy itself.

However, Lansley had a predecessor who had already put trans guidance in place with the NHS.

Step up and take a bow, Surinder Sharma, National Director for Equality and Human
Rights, Department of Health, 2008."

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422575384105820162[/quote]
lots of males behind this Andrew Lansley, Surinder Sharma, Bernard Reed (GIRES)

excellent work by Vulvamort and others

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:02

Best Practice Guidance
Title Trans: A practical guide for the NHS
Author Department of Health
Publication date October 2008

(extract)
Executive Summary
People who cross contemporary cultural gender boundaries for any reason –collectively referred to as ‘trans people’– are an often ignored group in society, yet all research undertaken in the areas of
employment, health provision, social exclusion and hate crime indicates that they experience disproportionate levels of discrimination, harassment and violence. Transsexual people, those who identify as transgender and people who periodically cross-dress in private have distinctly separate social experiences and needs; nevertheless they all experience similar kinds of unwarranted social disapproval.
Trans people are more likely than others to experience difficulty in finding work or retaining it if their background becomes known to others. High numbers report feeling obliged to change jobs because of workplace harassment and abuse. Upon revealing their gender issues people are at high risk of being shunned by family and friends.
Many experience violent intimidation on the streets or outside their homes. Consequently trans people are also susceptible to depression and at risk of suicide. A 2007 report, Engendered Penalties (Whittle S, Turner L and Al-Alami M, The Equalities Review, February 2007 ; see
www.pfc.org.uk/files/EngenderedPenalties.pdf) , highlighted that 34% of respondents in a survey of 872 trans people had considered suicide one or more times before receiving professional assessment and support. This is considerably higher than the risk in many other groups and should serve to underline that trans people would not subject themselves to such experiences unless, for them, there was no better option. As explained in this guide, there is nothing trivial
or capricious about permanently changing gender role.

Creating better services
There is evidence to indicate that, for some trans people, the National Health Service (NHS) has at times unfortunately contributed towards anguish and distress. Research published in February 2007 (see above) showed that almost 20% of trans people surveyed for the Equalities Review reported that their healthcare was either affected or
refused altogether by GPs who knew they were trans. Whilst there are notable examples of excellent care and good practice, 60% of trans people who thought their GPs and other medical professionals would like to be more helpful and supportive reported that the practitioners felt unable to do so through lack of training and information." (continues)
www.open.ac.uk/health-and-social-care/research/sexuality-alliance/sites/www.open.ac.uk.health-and-social-care.research.sexuality-alliance/files/files/ecms/web-content/research-web-content/doh-trans-practical-guide.pdf

Front cover features Christine Burns (Press For Change)
Foreward by Surinder Sharma, National Director for Equality and Human Rights, Department of Health

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:14

2008 TEN YEARS ON: LGBT YOUNG PEOPLE IN CALDERDALE
(West Yorkshire)

Letter from Surinder Sharma,
Director for Equality and Human Rights
The Department of Health

As Director of Equality and Human Rights at the Department of Health one of my top priorities is to challenge health inequalities. I am proud that my department established SOGIAG (Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Advisory Group) in 2005 to help challenge the health inequalities of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people, and that this work is being strengthened through the new LGBT Advisory Group.It is through the work of SOGIAG that I first came across GALYIC and Jan Bridget in particular. GALYIC have supported our work in many ways including appearing in one of our training DVDs: Real Stories, Real Lives. This is why I am delighted to see this report published.
Whilst the report concerns Calderdale, many of the findings and recommendations are transferable to other areas, I was particularly interested in the sections on LGBT people and mental health. " (continues)

www.galyic.org.uk/docs/news/10yearsfull.pdf

NB Gay & Lesbian Youth in Calderdale (GALYIC)

Vargas · 03/08/2021 18:21

[quote IheartJKR]@vargus but you’re vulnerable sick - medicated - you maybe can’t advocate for yourself !!!! You’re a sitting duck

@R0wantrees
A sex offender is a rapist who’s not been caught yet…. Or escalated[/quote]
@IheartJKR You're right of course, I wrote my post in a moment of rage. We need laws and guidelines and structures to protect women and girls, and our politicians and NHS trusts are letting us all down with this kind of nonsense. And of course it is those that cannot speak for themselves that are most likely to suffer harm. Utterly enraging.

R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:42

Vulvamort via Twitter

"The NHS have been trying to untangle sex vs gender for a LONG time.

The government pushed them into this corner.

Minutes from a 2006 meeting below Down pointing backhand index

"The Chairman expressed concern over the use of sex and gender in the dataset commenting that the terms were used incorrectly"

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422509983342678018

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:46

Vulvamort via Twitter

"These conversations about the difference between sex and gender in the NHS were so memorable that eight years later the Acting Chair of the NHS information standards board commented on meeting minutes that he would never forget the sex and gender conversations."

twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422516182075248642

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 18:56

Vulvamort via Twitter

"In 2007, NHS meeting minutes show that what was once on all our medical records, SEX, was changed to become

"Person Gender (Current)"

From that point onwards, sex was replaced by gender."
twitter.com/HairyLeggdHarpy/status/1422512092519804930

UK Secretary of State for Health and Social Care

Patricia Hewitt 6 May 2005 28 June 2007 Labour
Alan Johnson 28 June 2007 5 June 2009 Labour
Andy Burnham 5 June 2009 11 May 2010 Labour
Andrew Lansley 11 May 2010 4 September 2012 Conservative
Jeremy Hunt 4 September 2012 8 January 2018 Conservative

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
Comingoutfighting · 03/08/2021 19:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

SnoopyLights · 03/08/2021 20:02

The last two paragraphs of this article are shocking to me. How can a hospital trust advise nurses to chastise women who are concerned about sharing a space with male bodied people, when they are often vulnerable, medicated, immobile, and in a state of undress? And how dare they compare genuine concerns about physical safety to racism?

Male-born sex offenders who identify as women can be treated on female-only NHS wards after a risk assessment, some hospital trusts have told staff.

Devon, Oxford and Nottinghamshire hospitals have said that a criminal history should be part of an assessment when placing trans patients but that it should not prevent admission in all cases.

Some NHS trusts have issued guidance stating that people should be admitted to wards based on the gender they identify with and can choose which shower and lavatory facilities to use, according to The Daily Telegraph.

Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust notes that the “risk of sexual offending in a trans context is very rare”, adding that where there is “significant risk” staff would “apply the same robust mitigation that we would to a non-trans patient to ensure a safe therapeutic environment”.

Dr Jane Hamlin, president of the Beaumont Society, a trans support group, said: “If anyone starts off with an assumption that a trans person is a sex offender — or even a potential sex offender — that is discrimination and transphobia. All patients, including trans people, should feel safe when in hospital.”

However, the policies have been put in place despite the Department of Health saying that hospitals should provide single-sex wards.

One nurse told the Telegraph that risk assessments of patients, including those with a known history of sexual offences, were not conducted because workloads were too high. “NHS wards are replicating what is happening in jails,” the nurse said.

Devon Partnership NHS Trust says that patients “will be admitted based on the gender which they identify as at the point of admission” and for legal reasons will not be based on physical characteristics or the person proving they have legally changed their gender or name.

Risk assessments must be carried out but it indicates that this does not necessarily prevent male-born sex offenders being placed on female-only wards.

The Oxford trust states that “if the service user has a sex-offending history, risk should be managed in the same way as it would be with any other client, irrespective of gender”.

It said its guidance “follows the legal parameters” and “sets out that every case is individually assessed, taking into account risk factors to the patient as well as other ward users”.

Nottinghamshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust guidance says that when deciding on the treatment setting “previous history of sexual offending and/or domestic violence or abuse should be taken into account”.

A spokesman for the Nottinghamshire trust added: “All our staff follow guidance to ensure the safety and dignity of our patients in line with government legislation, including carrying out a risk assessment to ensure they are given appropriate care.”

A spokesman for the Devon trust said that it was “a sensitive issue” and that it was reviewing the policy to ensure “the safety of our patients and staff”.

The Times reported last year that hospital guidance issued by NHS Greater Glasgow & Clyde that urged nurses to chastise women who object to sharing a ward with trans women had been put under review.

The health board advised staff to treat women who were uncomfortable about sleeping next to patients who appeared male as they would a racist who was worried about a black patient.

Comingoutfighting · 03/08/2021 20:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/08/2021 20:07

In the men’s I was frequently treated to the sight of penises deliberately allowed to fly free when I got anywhere near. I never had anything like this on the women’s ward. I think female nurses have to deal with this all the time.

Has any hospital trust ever considered a policy of withdrawing care from male patients who do this? Or are such hard lines only drawn when a woman objects to a biologically male patient in the next bed?

ryzen · 03/08/2021 20:35

@SnoopyLights yes it's that article that made me a bit wtf.
Really quite shocked about how far this has gone however I've also learned way more than I ever imagined I would reading this thread.
It appears this has all been bubbling away for years.

But stopping women from speaking up about it all is terrible. For all the women who have fought for the rights we have/had?! things definitely appear to be heading in the wrong direction. Not in the direction I'd have hoped my young dd would be growing up in anyway.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 21:36

Sajid Javid via Twitter

(Member of Parliament for Bromsgrove & Secretary of State for Health and Social Care)

"All patients, including women and transgender people, should feel comfortable and safe in hospital.

It's not wrong to look at whether guidance is right, or how it's being applied, to reassure everyone.

I’ve asked @DHSCgovuk for fresh advice."*

7:20 PM · Aug 3, 2021

twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1422623414196576256

Never thought I'd post on here but males on female hospital wards. Wtf
R0wantrees · 03/08/2021 23:20

current thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4313843-Game-on-Sajid-Javid-bites

DottyHarmer · 04/08/2021 08:34

I find it extraordinary that the Devon trust states that you should be admitted to a ward based on the gender you identify as at point of admission.

Do they really just accept someone’s say-so? Would they place any random bloke in a female ward because he requested it?

I can imagine that if someone is transferred from prison for treatment then a risk assessment would be carried out (cousin some while back saw Ian Huntley at her local hospital - luckily leg-cuffed) but a hospital won’t have the time/resources to check out every patient - and of course Stonewall are bleating that it’s discriminatory to be cautious about a man wanting to be on a female ward.