BBC prepared to block/report Twitter users for 'hate' after being called out on Hubbard reporting.

[TalkingOutYerArse]

mobile.twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1421893701031301124

Cowardice.

@merrymouse

It's such a bad article!

They atleast quote Ross Tucker, but then quote Harper

In weightlifting we divide the categories into weight, so we don't have big weightlifters competing against little weightlifters. If you look at the women that Laurel Hubbard is competing against, they're all very large women.

This is so disingenuous. None of them are as big as Hubbard. The maximum weight class for women is 87kg, but Hubbard would qualify for a higher weight category if competing as a man and therefore need to lift heavier weights to qualify. That class just doesn't exist for women.

I really want somebody to ask Budgett how he is planning to include trans men, and whether they should get a head start in qualifying events to be inclusive.

This isn’t by a long way my main problem with all of this, but the “If you look at the women that Laurel Hubbard is competing against, they're all very large women.” line is so bloody offensive.

I am a very tall woman, with a correspondingly large build. I’m not a little bit male as a consequence, and it’s taken me half a bloody century to fight down that niggling internal sense of “tall=unfeminine”. Plus, I know to my cost that tall and strong as I am, a smaller man can still overpower me.

It infuriates me that this is being given airtime and is being used as a way of blurring lines between groups we know perfectly well are in fact distinct.

Maybe they have come under less scrutiny because being a non binary athlete doesn't necessarily mean you have the physiological advantages that come with male puberty. Similarly, BMX cycling or skateboarding aren't really that different to equestrian events where the horse is doing the physical work and men and women compete equally.

Unlike many people on this board, I believe that arrangements for transgender athletes should be made on a sport by sport basis. In the case of weightlifting, men do have huge advantages over women.

Can you clarify: are you saying that in sport where there is male advantage you would segregate by sex, whereas in sport where there is no male advantage you would segregate by gender? What's the justification for segregation in the latter case?

Isn’t it amazing how all the positive media for this cheat are labelling him as making history for trans people, whilst ignoring the 2 non binary females who have been competing already. It’s almost like this whole movement is male supremacy under a new name….

Antinerak
If transphobes' are really that upset about being blocked on social media, it's probably best they are so they can witter away to themselves without inconveniencing anyone else with their lies.

I'm glad they're taking the bullshit Laurel is facing seriously, she deserved much better than this. I'm also glad they'll be getting the police involved- too fucking right they should

Best of luck to her!

Why are you a male supremacist, out of curiosity?

Plus, I know to my cost that tall and strong as I am, a smaller man can still overpower me.

Exactly.

The male winner of the 81kg class lifted 378 kg.

The women's record at 87kg is 335 kg.

Why does the BBC print such stupid arguments?

From www.news.com.au/sport/olympics/what-time-does-transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-compete-tonight/news-story/428139b691228ebc9c65c14c0a9fda40

“Hubbard was the last of the 10 competitors out as they lined up to be introduced to the crowd. There were cheers and loud applause for many of the weighlifters.”

“When Hubbard’s name was announced, she gave a short wave and there was a warm smattering of applause — however it wasn’t the most raucous reception of the night.”

“Spectators are banned but there are hundreds of people — if not more than 1000 — inside the convention centrre where the event is taking place in front of a whopping crowd for what’s allowed.”

“Journalists from around the world are packed in, and have been given a 20-page guide on how to correctly report on transgender athletes.”

“The guide says reporting trans athletes have an unfair advantage over their rivals is “misinformation”.”

I have a relative who needs testosterone suppression to treat his prostate cancer. Pretty bizarre to me to think that there are sporting bodies out there that think that means he counts as a woman if he wants to.

Then they cut to some dumb activist saying the science shows conclusively that there's no advantage.
So how do they explain then that men run faster, throw further, jump higher etc. Are women just a bit lazy? Don't train enough?

I just put this on another thread but will repeat it here as it was refreshing to hear:

Radio 4’s coverage this morning was better. The male sports correspondent said something like
“LH is 43 and not a very good weightlifter but the issues are much wider... “

@Triphazards that's my point (not clear in hindsight!)! People are reading articles like the BBC ones which say "women with high T" and believing that they are women with high T, and thinking it's unfair. Which is exactly what they're meant to think, of course!

Most people aren't experts in this, and trust sources like the BBC which makes it all the more insidous and harmful.

It makes me wonder what else these once trusted sources are lying about

@Bitofachinwag

Then they cut to some dumb activist saying the science shows conclusively that there's no advantage. So how do they explain then that men run faster, throw further, jump higher etc. Are women just a bit lazy? Don't train enough?

That is the story that is being propagated. That any woman could develop the same muscle and lift the same weights if they applied themselves a bit.

This is modern mythology with no grounding in established physiology.

The Gap between what Fallon Fox says and what Harper and Budgett say is noticeable. Harper and Budgett are aware of the science and fall back on being a bit waffly and suggesting that fairness might not be that important. (Even though neither seems to be aware of the existence of non binary people and trans men when they talk about inclusivity).

Fallon Fox is just talking rubbish.

Yes, IIRC there was an academic on Women's Hour a year or two ago who said that women hadn't really pushed themselves to the limit while they were only competing with other women, but if they found themselves competing against people who were stronger/better, they would try harder. Jawdropping nonsense.

Tokyo Olympics: Laurel Hubbard out of weightlifting after failing to register successful lift www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/58054891

Did LH do it to prove the Olympics are inclusive? Interesting quote.

Yes, IIRC there was an academic on Women's Hour a year or two ago who said that women hadn't really pushed themselves to the limit while they were only competing with other women, but if they found themselves competing against people who were stronger/better, they would try harder. Jawdropping nonsense.

...Oops.

Was going to say, that would be Lewis Cashmore, the nominatively determined rent-a-quote controversialist.

@KevinBaconsJeans

As an aside, so many on that thread saying 'why can Hubbard compete when Semenya - a woman - cant?'

[Facepalm]

I don't think the Semenya situation is clear to most. I certainly don't feel I confidently understand it.

Would like to be clear about the link between the hatewontwin tweet and gender critical views before complaining about it.

Is it the timing? Did it appear at the same time as the article about Laurel Hubbard? Or was the link made some other way?

I certainly don't feel I confidently understand it.

There are a variety of distinct disorders of sexual development. Some mean that although external development of male genitals is not typical, male puberty will be experienced.

Not only will testosterone levels be in the male range, but the physical advantages of male puberty will be conferred.

People who fall into this category - they have XY chromosomes, they have testosterone levels above a particular limit and they are ‘androgen sensitive’ but were observed to be female at birth, must reduce testosterone levels to compete in some women’s events, but not others.

However, although we can discuss at length the specification for bikes used in cycling competitions or acceptable use of inhalers, these are the rules that must not be named.

It is all a bit like the Minions in Despicable Me, where the absence of observable male genitalia means "Not Boy."

Can you clarify: are you saying that in sport where there is male advantage you would segregate by sex, whereas in sport where there is no male advantage you would segregate by gender? What's the justification for segregation in the latter case?

What I was trying to say was that men always have an advantage over women when it comes to physical strength but that the consequences are greater in some sports than in others. Sex segregation is more important in contact sports or sports like weightlifting which are about physical strength.

I am quite aware that men have an advantage in every sport bar long distance running or swimming but we also have to accept that elite international sport isn't just about natural ability and skill. Other factors like training facilities also play a role, which is why Britain now gets more medals than before there was lottery money. We haven't just got better at sport! That's why I think we need research evidence from different sports, not just assuming the effect of male puberty is exactly the same across the board. It's also why people like FondofBeetles are so important because they address arguments like 'Michael Phelps had big feet. It's just the same as as transgender women competing in women's sports'. The various mixed relay events at The Olympics have helped show the importance of sex based differences really well.

I wasn't suggesting separating sports by gender identity, just highlighting the way in which the 'transgender umbrella' creates confusion by including non binary athletes. As another poster pointed out, there are lots of definitions of non binary. I was answering the BBC's question about why there has been more controversy about Laurel Hubbard than Quinn. Quinn has no physiological advantages compared with their rivals.

The same problem applies when DSD athletes are included under the transgender umbrella. As another poster pointed out, there is so much on social media about the unfairness of Laurel Hubbard and Stephanie Beecham (both white) competing in the Olympics when some African DSD women cannot.

I did watch some skateboarding, dressage and BMX cycling contrary to what some posters suggested. I was just highlighting that fairness and women's safety is more compromised in some sports than others. I am more bothered about Fallon Fox competing (and being consulted as a spokesperson) than I would be about a transgender skateboarder.

World Rugby did its own thing, examined the science and ended up with a clear compromise. Surely that's better than just following IOC rules, like the New Zealand weightlifting or Canadian archery federations?

I've just got home from work and gone to check out the BBCs tweet,and it's vanished.
Makes me glad that I binned paying the TV licence several years back though.

@BaronMunchausen

Would like to be clear about the link between the hatewontwin tweet and gender critical views before complaining about it.

Is it the timing? Did it appear at the same time as the article about Laurel Hubbard? Or was the link made some other way?

The hatewontwin tweet is the first reply to this one about Laurel Hubbard:

twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1421893490066149377

Timestamp for both is 7.00pm on 1 Aug.

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

I've just got home from work and gone to check out the BBCs tweet,and it's vanished. Makes me glad that I binned paying the TV licence several years back though.

Which tweet? The one in the OP and the one where they QT the #HateWontWin are both there for me.

archived here: archive.ph/bGfPV