Female Namibian runners change events due to too high testosterone

[KevinBaconsJeans]

Just spotted this on my newsfeed and very confused. I've seen on another post that there is no maximum limit for women's natural testosterone. So does that mean that this BBC article is lying by omission about the sex of the runners to create a story that isn't true?

It talks about two Namibian runners who have had to switch to different events because they have high T...

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58029941

Extract:
Her initial excitement at an Olympic qualification however was crushed when she was informed by World Athletics that she would not be able to compete in the 400m event at the Games due to high levels of testosterone.

"In the beginning I was very down, you can't come and tell me now I am not a woman. That is really frustrating and gets me on my nerves but there's nothing we can do about it at the moment," she told BBC Sport Africa...

"It is really unfair because you cannot expect everyone to be the same, everyone to have the same abilities, we are born with different abilities, we can't be the same it doesn't make sense."

Masilingi was only informed in July by World Athletics that her testosterone levels were beyond the allowed limit for female athletes wanting to run in distances from 400m to one mile, unless they medically lower their testosterone for a period of at least six months

But great news for our 3 800 metres women

Silver and a 4th and all pbs

💪💪💪🍻

Fair competition

Awful.

And once the rules are relaxed to allow those , like Hubbard, who are unambiguously male to compete, provided they lower their T levels, these very young 'XY female' athletes can walk into women's sport, because the sex bar has been effectively eliminated. The fact they are XY, male-bodied and have gone through male puberty is effectively immaterial. The demand for trans inclusion has enabled this, and silenced dissent and debate. Look at the pathetic BBC and Guardian coverage. They daren't even use the words.

Give international coaching teams and management teams an opportunity to "cheat" and they will grasp it with two hands. Winning equals money. It's as simple as that.

This is the tip of the iceberg. It wouldn't surprise me if certain countries started selective programmes and "sourcing" of certain types of athletes.

I mean China have been known to basically abduct children and force them in to sports programmes because they show promise/have the right look.

Russia historically trained their swimmers in troughs to make them stronger.

Abuse of athletes in various forms is rife and still ongoing.

Women's sports is in danger and the be kind debate is limiting girls and women's opportunities and chances. But nobody will listen because you know...be nice 🙄

@littlbrowndog

But great news for our 3 800 metres women

Silver and a 4th and all pbs

💪💪💪🍻

Fair competition

Exactly. Great result for the three UK runners . But I couldn’t help wondering if Lyndsey Sharpe would be able to bring herself to watch. Five years ago it should have been her enjoying a lap of honour wrapped in a flag.

I know. Lindsey got an awful kicking for suggesting it was an unfair final in Rio

Which it was

.

Two women denied places in the final and now poor Shelley Anne FP denied a medal by a teenage boy. It’s disgusting. And the reporting is so inaccurate that everyone is hailing these great new talents from Namibia who if they were competing against there peers would be distinctly average

[quote QuattroFormaggi]Found this on Twitter. Very useful about the DSD science

www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/dsd-regulations-call-out-athletes-as-biologically-male/[/quote]
That is an interesting but confusing article. First of all it explained alleged that skeletal, and other physical advantages are as important to explain male dominance in sport as testosterone level is . But then it goes on to say that when the internal gonads are removed, thus reducing the production of testosterone, then athletic ability is vastly reduced.

Apparently it is also allowed for female XX athletes with DSD who want to compete in male events (must be rare creatures indeed! ) are allowed to take artificial testosterone to boost their naturally occurring levels to equal those of a natal XY athlete. But as we know, it is enough for transwomen and XY DSD athletes to reduce their testosterone to double that of the highest recorded level of natal women.

The whole system is so very confused. I can only hope that the various committees take the next couple of years to make it fair. And when I say fair I mean fair for women, it appears to be fair for men already.

I genuinely believe DSD/Dysphoria should be a Paralympic entry.

It's a health condition at the end of the day. They can then have fair competition and run whatever distances they want with other DSD or dysphoria entries.

This would allow genetically a typical XX athletes fair competition in their events.

@Barwell76

But she is still allowed to run in the 200m? The same rules should apply to all events.

Blame Caster Semenya for that weirdness.

I found so much of the reporting inherrently racist.

The framing that the decision was 'policing black bodies' and discriminating against Black women when these athletes were found to have higher levels of testosterone; well why not go right ahead and say that black women have higher levels of testosterone than white women.

And once you've said that, well the next step is Black women are inherently more masculine than white women playing right into that racist trope.

As a woman of colour, I just find it so insulting. Our testosterone levels are no different from those of white women

@TheSkatesOfCoachBombay

I genuinely believe DSD/Dysphoria should be a Paralympic entry.

It's a health condition at the end of the day. They can then have fair competition and run whatever distances they want with other DSD or dysphoria entries.

This would allow genetically a typical XX athletes fair competition in their events.

Agree 100% Skates. I find it horrible frankly how these DSD individuals are publicly assessed, discussed, their most intimate medical history up there for all to see. They deserve a category for dignity alone.

But again, most opposition will come from the Most Oppressed who will shout how dare you pathologise us, we are all women, no debate etc.

I think Michael Johnson was actually trying to get the point across, not gloss over it! Gabby handed over to him to explain what it's like to have to switch down from 400m to 200m and he didn't cover that, he went on to talk about the DSD rules.

@Palavah

I think Michael Johnson was actually trying to get the point across, not gloss over it! Gabby handed over to him to explain what it's like to have to switch down from 400m to 200m and he didn't cover that, he went on to talk about the DSD rules.

yeah! He really isn't happy with the current rulings and has been quite outspoken!

@Hulo

I found so much of the reporting inherrently racist.

The framing that the decision was 'policing black bodies' and discriminating against Black women when these athletes were found to have higher levels of testosterone; well why not go right ahead and say that black women have higher levels of testosterone than white women.

And once you've said that, well the next step is Black women are inherently more masculine than white women playing right into that racist trope.

As a woman of colour, I just find it so insulting. Our testosterone levels are no different from those of white women

That isn't necessarily true though, so I can't see it as racist. One reason that has been hypothesised for the difference in cancer rates in older black women is different hormone levels. Race is of course rather a blunt category, but there can be real differences in biology related to ethnicity.

Some DSDs do appear more often in some ethnicities. It's not racist to understand this, though it's unfortunate that we interpret that in terms of race. But that's not likely to change so long as identity politics and CT rule the day, because those are the categories people think in. People don't think "this is more common among a small group of people in the DM" they think "this is more common among black people." But the second is only a crude correlation to the former, without real meaning.

Indeed, I mean for me personally I'd find more inclusion and acceptance when I can compete without scrutiny, discussions about my genitals and testosterone levels. I could concentrate on my event knowing my performance is all that matters here. The people I'm competing against are competition for me and push me further to excel.

I mean if that's no liberating for a athlete, I don't know what is 🤷🏻‍♀️

But that's not going to be good enough is it as we all know 🙄

@TurquoiseBaubles

I watched the heats last night.

There are four "women with high testosterone" who have switched to the 200 m. At least two only started running 200 m in he last few weeks, all four made it into the next round, three posted personal bests (presumably because they had not competed officially in 200 m before).

Most infuriatingly one broke the "women's" national record, and the "women's" junior world record, and did it easily.

Can they keep their testosterone in the normal male range for those races?

Sorry quote fail that was in response to notagermanoun 😳

I feel so bad for Shelley Ann Fraser Pryce being denied a medal. A real woman who has had a baby and come back to compete overcoming huge obstacles. But she is a very high profile athlete and I can’t imagine Jamaica athletics will be happy that she has been cheated out of a medal in this way so perhaps there will be a bit more kickback from this result than there was regarding Caster Semanya.

@Palavah

I think Michael Johnson was actually trying to get the point across, not gloss over it! Gabby handed over to him to explain what it's like to have to switch down from 400m to 200m and he didn't cover that, he went on to talk about the DSD rules.

I noticed that as well. He was making the point that it applies to those events because they were the ones that they had concrete evidence for. I guess that this debacle is providing the evidence for the 200m. It seems like women have to be seen to fail in every event before they can rule the men out

@Hulo

I found so much of the reporting inherrently racist.

The framing that the decision was 'policing black bodies' and discriminating against Black women when these athletes were found to have higher levels of testosterone; well why not go right ahead and say that black women have higher levels of testosterone than white women.

And once you've said that, well the next step is Black women are inherently more masculine than white women playing right into that racist trope.

As a woman of colour, I just find it so insulting. Our testosterone levels are no different from those of white women

Of course black women’s testosterone levels are no different from those of white women. But these athletes are not women with high testosterone levels. They have XY chromosomes, which means that they are biologically men, even if they are living as and presenting as women . They have been through male puberty with the athletic advantages of physiology , strength and muscle development that confers, they have testes, often internal, which produce testosterone at a normal male level. It is impossible for women , even women with endocrinology issues such as poly cystic ovaries to reach the levels of testosterone that these athletes have. There appears to be an almost universal reluctance by journalists and sports pundits to acknowledge the sex of these athletes and moreover fudging the discussion by referring to them as young women .

They are young men.

Why they have been deliberately chosen to represent their country in women’s athletics events is another matter.

He also made a point for f consistently referring to them as DSD athletes rather than women which was also helpful

Yup.. Gabby Thomas and Shelly Ann Fraser Pryce ...

I thought Michael Johnson was trying to explain it as diplomatically as he could. I actually think Gabby doesn't agree with the ruling either. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they agreed Michael would talk about it because Gabby is a BBC employee.

Ross Tucker gives a bit more background:

twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1422079268637523971?s=21

I agree with Hulo that there has been some unpleasantly racist undertones to the discussions. It also conflates transgender with DSD, a longstanding problem discussed on this board.

The 800 on the other hand was amazing. I think there were 6 or 7 PBs. Athing Mu the American who won is amazing. Such a relaxed looking running style! Really felt for Jemma Reekie just being pipped for the bronze!