Female Namibian runners change events due to too high testosterone

[KevinBaconsJeans]

Just spotted this on my newsfeed and very confused. I've seen on another post that there is no maximum limit for women's natural testosterone. So does that mean that this BBC article is lying by omission about the sex of the runners to create a story that isn't true?

It talks about two Namibian runners who have had to switch to different events because they have high T...

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58029941

Extract:
Her initial excitement at an Olympic qualification however was crushed when she was informed by World Athletics that she would not be able to compete in the 400m event at the Games due to high levels of testosterone.

"In the beginning I was very down, you can't come and tell me now I am not a woman. That is really frustrating and gets me on my nerves but there's nothing we can do about it at the moment," she told BBC Sport Africa...

"It is really unfair because you cannot expect everyone to be the same, everyone to have the same abilities, we are born with different abilities, we can't be the same it doesn't make sense."

Masilingi was only informed in July by World Athletics that her testosterone levels were beyond the allowed limit for female athletes wanting to run in distances from 400m to one mile, unless they medically lower their testosterone for a period of at least six months

Ok so the rules only apply to xy people.

Anyone want to complain to the bbc about their reporting?!

olympics.com/en/news/semenya-niyonsaba-wambui-what-is-dsd-iaaf-regulations

I was really surprised to read on here the other day that the testosterone levels only apply to XY athletes.

I suspect they apply to XX athletes too - it’s just they would be given a ban for doping.

It is a racist trope that these athletes come from remote villages where they don't understand that that not starting periods and instead going through male puberty where their genitalia changes to reassemble a more typically male presentation is perfectly normal.

I believe that's probably true. In some parts of the world, Semenya's condition is actually far more common than the west, and even has a common name - guevedoce.

(Interestingly there - "In adulthood, guevedoces most commonly self-identify as men, but are not necessarily completely treated as such by society." The phenomenon has commonly been described as "little girls who turn into boys at puberty".)

Watched an interesting yesterday. She has CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome), a different condition to these XY runners. She would not be excluded by the rules, regardless of T level, as they only apply to people who respond to testosterone. CAIS XYs are kind of super-feminine, due to not responding to testosterone at all - normally women respond to the little they do have. They often have model-type looks, including being tall. And they are overrepresented in female sport, but their advantage is not enough for anyone to think they should be excluded. It is a "natural advantage" still comparable to the range of normal female variation.

Unlike 5-ARD athletes like Semenya. They respond to their natural testosterone normally, and end up with effectively normal male bodies. And we already have a classification for such bodies to compete in.

These athletes are not innocent victims of some rare condition that they knew nothing about. They are well aware of their condition & are trying to exploit it to their advantage with the full backing of their sporting authorities.
Unless we make a stand against this & stop trying to paint the athletes concerned as innocent victims, women’s sport will be completely fucked.

I suspect they apply to XX athletes too - it’s just they would be given a ban for doping.

The high level would be strong evidence of doping. They'd kind of have to prove it was down to a natural condition. If they could prove that, they'd be okay.

There is no such thing as an XY woman @NecessaryScene. An XY person is male.

And while DSDs may be more common in some parts of the world than others, no one thinks these children are girls when they go through puberty. It's why there is a special word for these children with DSDs which makes it clear they are not girls.

I’m reading a Twitter thread about LH, the weightlifter. This graph was on it showing the spread of floating-T in men, women and people with dsd. I found it interesting to have a visual reference.

I'm torn. I have so much empathy for women who have been told their whole lives that they are women, and they've trained (and sacrificed) accordingly, and then they discover they are in fact male with unusual /ambiguous genitals.

I don't think there's much reason to think that this was the case with these athletes.

@Clymene yes, xy = male. Being insensitive to androgens doesn't change the developmental path the person's body should have gone down. Women aren't just men who can't react to T.

At this point I don't think there's any room for women to be accomodating to ANY male who tries to change the definition of woman to fit themself.

I started a discussion about the video because I was querying what I thought was unchallenged misinformation

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4309294-Is-there-evidence-for-this

God I am confused. Can someone explain the rules and the conditions of the athletes in simple terms?

An XY person is male.

I think people who have CAIS are chromosomally male, but phenotypically female.

I know that TRAs try to fudge the issue and say that DSDs are a sign that sex is a spectrum, but I don’t think it’s wrong to say that very specific DSDs can mean that somebody who is externally female can have a Y chromosome.

There are lots of reasons why someone who has trained for years at their sport and sacrificed much for it are not able to compete - most commonly because someone is better than them. We can sympathise with broken dreams but it doesn't mean they should get a pass. There would be women who have also trained hard and sacrificed much; why should they lose out?

@Lordamighty

These athletes are not innocent victims of some rare condition that they knew nothing about. They are well aware of their condition & are trying to exploit it to their advantage with the full backing of their sporting authorities. Unless we make a stand against this & stop trying to paint the athletes concerned as innocent victims, women’s sport will be completely fucked.

I couldn't agree more with this.

God I am confused. Can someone explain the rules and the conditions of the athletes in simple terms?

Female Athlete is identified as possibly having high testosterone.

Athlete’s testosterone is checked - if high and athlete is XX (and not doping) such as with an XX DSD like Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia athlete continues with no need to change anything.

If an XY then DSD testing to determine which type and whether athlete is androgen sensitive. If androgen sensitive then testosterone levels need to be lowered to compete in some selected races. The high testosterone comes from what is often internal testes

It’s daft but only some races in athletes could “prove” that male puberty and testosterone were beneficial, so male DSD athletes competing as women can run with male levels of testosterone.

worldathletics.org/news/press-release/questions-answers-iaaf-female-eligibility-reg

This is helpful, or the full report is on line.

There is no such thing as an XY woman @NecessaryScene. An XY person is male.

Not quite. It doesn't make sense to say "sex is genetics". Genetics determines sex, but it's not the only thing. We knew what sex was before we knew what genes were. So does it make sense to reclassify this person who for the last 10000 years would have unquestionably been a woman to be a man now, post-20th-century? Does it help?

In this case another part of the system has broken down, not letting the genes do their job. You've ended up with a female phenotype, despite being genetically male. A nearly-typical female-type body, but without the female reproductive system.

In everyday life, everyone is going to perceive them as female, and a woman. (Again, unlike a 5-ARD XY).

I would be interested to know actual statistical facts to see how other male/female traits line up. Sexuality, crime stats. You'd learn some things about what's socialisation, what's genetics, what's hormones. Other things like - dogs scared of men - would they sense/smell anything about an XY CAIS?

They're the most interesting edge case. If it weren't for the trans thing, I'd have no qualms at all about calling them a woman. We resort to gametes to try to draw a hard line, and that definition makes sense to define what "male" and "female" mean, but that hard line doesn't necessarily have to be a single-factor one (Y chromosome) for an individual. For discrimination purposes, being perceived as female is what matters.

Transwomen make similar claims - but they delude themselves about how much they're perceived as female.

CAIS are an edge case where I think general harm minimisation and dignity would come down on not requiring them to use male spaces or go to a male prison. Or even a third space. Women are at risk mainly because of their female-type body, and an XY CAIS person has a female-type body. And I suspect (but don't know) that that would also include female-type behaviour traits including crime risk.

*1. Which athletes fall under the DSD regulations?

The DSD regulations only apply to individuals who are:

legally female (or intersex) and
who have one of a certain number of specified DSDs, which mean that they have:
male chromosomes (XY) not female chromosomes (XX)
testes not ovaries
circulating testosterone in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L) not the (much lower) female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L); and
the ability to make use of that testosterone circulating within their bodies (i.e., they are ‘androgen-sensitive’)*

From the article - if you are a “female” DSD athlete you only need to lower testosterone if you are XY (male) and responsive to testosterone

@NotBadConsidering

The Namibian national Olympic committee have said that this athlete has XX chromosomes

1. post a link 2 if they say so in link they must be lying because otherwise this rule wouldn’t apply to them
2. if they are genuinely XX then it should have been easy to appeal to World Athletics and the Court of Arbitration for Sport, just show them a chromosome result.

www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1109936/namibian-noc-criticises-world-athletics

According to The Namibian, Mboma and Masilingi underwent a test last year to find out whether they were biologically female before undergoing a further examination to determine their testosterone levels.

"These ladies have XX chromosomes, they are females and conform to all female biological requirements,"

In this case another part of the system has broken down, not letting the genes do their job. You've ended up with a female phenotype, despite being genetically male. A nearly-typical female-type body, but without the female reproductive system.

If they don't have a female reproductive system then they don't have a female phenotype. Phenotype is about the expression of genes not how someone looks with long hair, heels and makeup. Reproductive system is a fubdamental part of phenotype, as is blood group and other things we can't see as someone walks down the street.

In which case then, either they’re lying or it should be a problem that could have been easily corrected. Given the behaviour of Athletics South Africa over the years with their lies and misinformation about Semenya to protect their own interests, I suspect the former.

And an Olympic official with the remit of selecting the best talent to win medals would have no pressure to allow misinformation to creep through? Right?

The fact these athletes had these tests and band is enough information that those who are familiar with working with the Olympic rules can accurately deduce what has happened.

Who would I believe? The actions of the OIC and the interpretation from an independent sports scientist involved in the Semenya case? Or a Namibian official who may or may not have the correct information, but certainly has a vested interest in the case?

@PennineSpring

I have so much empathy for women who have been told their whole lives that they are women

Women who never had a female puberty? Come on! Think about it. Even if we accept the story that they have always seen themselves as women, what should have happened at puberty didn’t happen, something else happened instead. What do you think that might be? If these athletes have internal testes pumping out testosterone, what form do you think they puberty took?

A lot of girls who train this hard will not start having periods. 16 or 17 wouldn't even be THAT late, I'm not sure about 18. I mean, these days, it seems highly likely that the coaches knew the situation. Whether the children did (and until this year, they were children) who knows?

@NotBadConsidering

In which case then, either they’re lying or it should be a problem that could have been easily corrected. Given the behaviour of Athletics South Africa over the years with their lies and misinformation about Semenya to protect their own interests, I suspect the former.

Yes they're lying. As @nolongersurprised points out, the regulations only affect athletes who are XY.

@ViceLikeBlip - these children will have gone through a male puberty. It is not just that they don't start periods (and even children who are athlete should start their periods).

The graph shared above is a really good visual we should all be sharing. Here it is again. Women's testosterone does vary but no where near the lower normal limits for men. We need to separate the two issues of trans and DSD which are muddied on purpose.
Transwomen should not be allowed in women's sports as they are male, full stop. Easy. These males can compete with the maximum limit of 10, yet the lower normal range for males is 7.
The normal range for females is much much lower (1-3 on 5he graph?). Women with PCOS can have testosterone up to about 4 but they would not be well enough to compete. Also important to note that the normal women's range varies during the menstrual cycle. I don't have the link but I do remember reading it only gets up to the peak on the graph for a couple of days a month.
The IOC has made a complete mess of this. Coaches and countries are complicit in the unscientific arguement that women with naturally high testosterone have been banned, women do not have naturally high testosterone as high as these women and that is because they are not women they are XY.