Female Namibian runners change events due to too high testosterone

[KevinBaconsJeans]

Just spotted this on my newsfeed and very confused. I've seen on another post that there is no maximum limit for women's natural testosterone. So does that mean that this BBC article is lying by omission about the sex of the runners to create a story that isn't true?

It talks about two Namibian runners who have had to switch to different events because they have high T...

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58029941

Extract:
Her initial excitement at an Olympic qualification however was crushed when she was informed by World Athletics that she would not be able to compete in the 400m event at the Games due to high levels of testosterone.

"In the beginning I was very down, you can't come and tell me now I am not a woman. That is really frustrating and gets me on my nerves but there's nothing we can do about it at the moment," she told BBC Sport Africa...

"It is really unfair because you cannot expect everyone to be the same, everyone to have the same abilities, we are born with different abilities, we can't be the same it doesn't make sense."

Masilingi was only informed in July by World Athletics that her testosterone levels were beyond the allowed limit for female athletes wanting to run in distances from 400m to one mile, unless they medically lower their testosterone for a period of at least six months

@nettie434

I thought Michael Johnson was trying to explain it as diplomatically as he could. I actually think Gabby doesn't agree with the ruling either. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they agreed Michael would talk about it because Gabby is a BBC employee.

Ross Tucker gives a bit more background:

twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1422079268637523971?s=21

I agree with Hulo that there has been some unpleasantly racist undertones to the discussions. It also conflates transgender with DSD, a longstanding problem discussed on this board.

From what I have seen the discussions aren’t racist so much as people seeming the discussions as racist in order to shut down the conversation ie implying that people are saying that they have high testosterone because they are black rather than because they are men!

Cailleach1

Yes, they are allowed to run these distances without lowering their T Levels. Both the Namibian athletes have the same coach. What a coincidence

"The answer, according to the current rules, is to ban the athletes from certain events unless they agree to artificially lower their testosterone to a level set by World Athletics."

apnews.com/article/2020-tokyo-olympics-track-and-field-sports-africa-switzerland-olympic-team-a704fcfb0f00918eadbb6cac39185a8d

From what I have seen the discussions aren’t racist so much as people seeming the discussions as racist in order to shut down the conversation ie implying that people are saying that they have high testosterone because they are black rather than because they are men!

Yes - that's a better summary, korawick12345 👍🏻

I can't speak for these athletes, but females can have xy chromosomes.

Women with Swyer syndrome have xy chromosomes, havea vulva, vagina, and womb, and with artificial insemination can get pregnant and give birth.

@PennineSpring

The BBC, like many journalists at the moment, leave out the important part of the story - these athletes are only subject to the T rules because they have XY chromosomes. If they had XX chromosomes, the rules wouldn’t apply to them.

It’s been confirmed many times that both atheletes have xx chromosoms.

@Clymene

There is no such thing as an XY woman *@NecessaryScene*. An XY person is male.

And while DSDs may be more common in some parts of the world than others, no one thinks these children are girls when they go through puberty. It's why there is a special word for these children with DSDs which makes it clear they are not girls.

Tell that to women with Swyer syndrome who have xy chromosomes.

Ozanj - so why are they subject to a ruling that applies to XY athletes? Doesn't that seem strange to you?

@PennineSpring

Wanttocry they may say that but the facts are these rules only apply to XY athletes with a DSD.

This.

The rules ONLY apply to XY

www.worldathletics.org/news/press-release/questions-answers-iaaf-female-eligibility-reg

So they are NOT XX.

Stop spreading false information. If they were XX the DSD rules wouldn't apply at all.

@korawick12345

Ozanj - so why are they subject to a ruling that applies to XY athletes? Doesn't that seem strange to you?

DSD (ie being intersex) means you can have abnormal sexual and hormonal development even with XX chromosomes. In fact as more babies with xx chromosomes are born than xy you could argue dsd is more common with biological women.

Misinformation again

The WA rules only apply to XY people.

Read them.

@Ozanj.

Yes, I believe the President of Namibia has confirmed that they have XX chromosomes. Unfortunately for him people with more scientific knowledge and access to diagnostic laboratories have affirmed that they have XY chromosomes.

@ozanj - you have misunderstood the situation. I suggest you go away and do some actual reading around the subject.

Typical BBC to leave out that these people are trans women, XY rather than XX natural born women as it were...

So what are the facts? Are the DSD athletes in this case XY?

@AntsInPenzance

I can't speak for these athletes, but females can have xy chromosomes.

Women with Swyer syndrome have xy chromosomes, havea vulva, vagina, and womb, and with artificial insemination can get pregnant and give birth.

Oh! Grabs popcorn.

Go on then. explain that one to me.

Remember many of us here actually know about such stuff by education, experience and it being our job. So don't hold back, use all the terminology... like, say gonadal dysgenesis.

... I can wait!

@Xenia

Typical BBC to leave out that these people are trans women, XY rather than XX natural born women as it were...

They aren't trans women though - they are legally female but biologically make with a DSD so not to be conflated with the trans debate.

@NecessaryScene

Why can't they compete with males?

Because reproductive function doesn't determine success in sport. It's the body.

We classify sports by sex, but it's a proxy for the two body types. Male-bodied people and female-bodied people are what we care about. Not the genitals, the genes, the gametes. The body type.

Those XY CAIS individuals have female-type bodies. Slightly non-standard - enough to be statistically different from the female norm, but a squillion miles away fom male bodies. Asking them to compete with men is as daft as asking any woman to compete with men. Maybe they're 0.1% closer, but that still leaves 14.9% gap.

And it's not viable to make a whole new classification for that small population.

Those individuals are not like Semenya, who I agree has a nearly-totally-standard male body, and hence should compete with other male-bodied individuals.

Semenya is nowhere near the men's standards. Semenya's 800m PB is 11 seconds slower than the UK men's record.

The women's world record is about 1 second faster than Semenya's PB, so non-DSD women can run faster than Semenya. I don't know what the answer is for people like Semenya, but she would be destroyed in the men's and her PB is in line with top-level women's times.

@GrimDamnFanjo

So what are the facts? Are the DSD athletes in this case XY?

Apparently so, It has been confirmed a couple of times in a few different publications with varying sources.

But I haven't seen anything I'd call definitive yet!

@GrimDamnFanjo

So what are the facts? Are the DSD athletes in this case XY?

Yes - the ruling they are competing under ONLY applies to XY athletes

Well when judges against her peers (male) Semenya isn't that good, just like the two namibians in the 200m final today would not be that good when judged against their peers (male). The fact that some people aren't world class athletes is hardly unusual or a cause for concern.

@AntsInPenzance

I can't speak for these athletes, but females can have xy chromosomes.

Women with Swyer syndrome have xy chromosomes, havea vulva, vagina, and womb, and with artificial insemination can get pregnant and give birth.

AntsInPenzance Swyer syndrom has many variations, XX and XY.

Human early fetal development relies on the X chromosome it's not till 6 weeks does the Y or the other X "kick in" to trigger genital development. So people with XX Swyer syndrom will outwardly appear female but missing sexual gonads (ovaries) those born XY Swyer syndrome are genetically male can have ambiguous genitalia at birth or underdeveloped/deformed genitalia. They also have missing sexual gonads (testicles)

Now a XY Syndrome holder who produces no testesterone will mature more effeminate and tend to be raised as female, generally a) due to lack of diagnosis and b) without the testosterone surges that boys/men have at stages in development they don't mature as a typical men.

In short you don't have a XY woman, you have a underdeveloped male lacking testosterone production. Gender dysphoria is understandably prominent in this group because if you were raised female believe to be female and then someone turns round and says "ah actually you are genetically male" I can only imagine the trauma and internal conflict that would cause.

They aren't trans women though - they are legally female but biologically make with a DSD so not to be conflated with the trans debate. Sadly they are consistently dragged in as though they are the same as trans people. They, apparently, have a use!!!!!

The truth is that there is a lot of very interesting and complex science going on in a wide variety of DSDs and studies into the impact on sporting ability is both low on the priority for funding from manistream sources and quite useful to be able to see/measure some of the benchmark data - which is why so many recent studies have been sports based (I say 'so many, it's all relative!)

We need to join them - again - in shouting "Stop appropriating our medical anomalies"

I mean if I was to compete in the U10s I would win easily but if I was in the correct age group I wouldn't lose by a country mile. Just because someone isn't good enough to win in the correct category doesn't mean they get to go into a less competitive category just so they can win!