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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Female Namibian runners change events due to too high testosterone

451 replies

KevinBaconsJeans · 02/08/2021 07:55

Just spotted this on my newsfeed and very confused. I've seen on another post that there is no maximum limit for women's natural testosterone. So does that mean that this BBC article is lying by omission about the sex of the runners to create a story that isn't true?

It talks about two Namibian runners who have had to switch to different events because they have high T...

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58029941

Extract:
Her initial excitement at an Olympic qualification however was crushed when she was informed by World Athletics that she would not be able to compete in the 400m event at the Games due to high levels of testosterone.

"In the beginning I was very down, you can't come and tell me now I am not a woman. That is really frustrating and gets me on my nerves but there's nothing we can do about it at the moment," she told BBC Sport Africa...

"It is really unfair because you cannot expect everyone to be the same, everyone to have the same abilities, we are born with different abilities, we can't be the same it doesn't make sense."

Masilingi was only informed in July by World Athletics that her testosterone levels were beyond the allowed limit for female athletes wanting to run in distances from 400m to one mile, unless they medically lower their testosterone for a period of at least six months

OP posts:
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notagermannoun · 06/08/2021 09:41

Is there a reason why males with Mboma's condition (androgen sensitive XY DSDs) are raised as girls?

Obviously in many cases in the developing world, the child is observed as 'female' at birth and regarded and socialised as female for many years, but what of children where the condition is identified very early in infancy? Are parents given the choice, or advised to raise the child as a girl? In other words, why is a boy with lower testosterone production and no external male genitalia best considered a girl?

Soontobe60 · 06/08/2021 09:57

@aiwblam

I do feel very sorry for the athletes caught up in this - those with DSDs, the athletes who are pushed down/out of the medals as a result and transgender athletes.

I believe that all should be allowed to compete and would achieve this by using categories, just like the way paralympians are put into categories so that competition is as fair as possible.

Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilinigi are dedicated athletes who deserve to be at the olympics. However, they should not be competing in women's events IMHO (or men's). There should be proper categorisation so that they can compete against physically similar athletes. There are a lot of intersex people and a lot of transgender people and there should be proper provision for them to compete.

In what way do you think they deserve to be at the Olympics? They are only there because they are males who have a DSD and are therefore allowed to run against females. Their specific DSD gives them as much male advantage over females as any other man has. I wonder how they would fare if they did race in the correct sex class? Their PB in the 800m is 2:03:27 and the current fastest time for the men’s 800m is 1:40:91. So as you can see, at almost 23 seconds, they are well behind other Olympic males at that distance. They actually didn't even start running i until they were 14 - most world class runners start training well before that age. They obtained the world record in the 400m at 48.54 secs. The fastest male record is currently 43.03 so once again they are almost 6 seconds behind. Again, why do you believe they deserve to be at the Olympics, running as a female?
NotBadConsidering · 06/08/2021 10:29

@notagermannoun

Is there a reason why males with Mboma's condition (androgen sensitive XY DSDs) are raised as girls?

Obviously in many cases in the developing world, the child is observed as 'female' at birth and regarded and socialised as female for many years, but what of children where the condition is identified very early in infancy? Are parents given the choice, or advised to raise the child as a girl? In other words, why is a boy with lower testosterone production and no external male genitalia best considered a girl?

The various conditions lead to underdevelopment of the external genitalia. For example in 5 alpha reductase deficiency which affects Semenya, the enzyme deficiency means there is a lack of dihydrotestoserone which is the hormone responsible for full development of the male external genitalia. As a result there is an external appearance that may appear female. But it isn’t. It’s not a vulva or a vagina, it’s a failed fully formed penis. There is no uterus. There is no lack of or lower testosterone, which is why they still benefit from male puberty. It’s likely this external genitalia appearance leads them to be raised as girls, but it would depend on the circumstances. In many places a proper examination may make it clear that it isn’t female external genitalia, leading to further investigations of a newborn infant. An ultrasound is pretty standard, with chromosomes, and testes would be found. In some circumstances, no sex would be assigned - the true meaning of the word Hmm - because of the difficulties in determining how a child might develop with such anatomy and physiology. It used to be the case that parents were told - not counselled - what sex to raise their child, by doctors and surgeons who thought they knew what was best, but it raised a number of ethical concerns when these children reached adulthood and felt “not right” or that they hadn’t been given a choice about surgical management etc. Quite rightly now there is no rush.

This is why the term the term “assigned at birth” for trans people is incorrect - there is never doubt as to their sex and it isn’t assigned - and the rush to medicalise children who are trans is antithetical to people with DSDs who are used as part of that debate, who have campaigned for years to let children reach adulthood before making permanent decisions about their bodies and sexual function.

In most situations around the world, if these athletes were anywhere else they would have been investigated for primary amenorrhoea at the age of 16. No one would have attributed it to them being athletes alone; it’s not actually that common for athletes to be amenorrhoeic and a diagnosis of primary amenorrhoea secondary to relative energy deficiency is a diagnosis of exclusion. So if these athletes were in the UK, Australia, USA etc they would have had a battery of tests to determine why and been found to be XY.

That these athletes only found out - apparently - that they were XY when World Athletics got involved suggests a few possibilities;l:

a) no one cared about them enough to be bothered by the fact they had never had a period. Even if you were sure they were female, starting periods and oestrogen is vital for bone health. They were medically neglected.

b) someone did think it wasn’t right, but there was no access to appropriate health care to look into it. I doubt this option.

c) people knew, but conveniently didn’t bother to check because they knew they had potential star athletes on their hands.

d) they were tested but Namibian authorities decided to cover it up and see if they could get away with it.

I doubt we will know the truth any time soon.

notagermannoun · 06/08/2021 10:50

Thanks, @NotBadConsidering. So if a child were to be born in our country today with this condition, they would be defined simply as 'other'? What about the birth certificate, does this allow for it? I appreciate that there is no rush, but surely there are difficulties in raising a child to be 'to be determined' sex? I am not asking these questions out of prurience, but genuine curiosity.

I do find it very telling that most boys born with this condition were previously raised as girls, even when it was identified. There is something almost Aristotelian about that - that there are fully developed males, the default perfectly formed human, and 'everyone else'.

KohlaParasanda · 06/08/2021 10:57

@notagermannoun

Is there a reason why males with Mboma's condition (androgen sensitive XY DSDs) are raised as girls?

Obviously in many cases in the developing world, the child is observed as 'female' at birth and regarded and socialised as female for many years, but what of children where the condition is identified very early in infancy? Are parents given the choice, or advised to raise the child as a girl? In other words, why is a boy with lower testosterone production and no external male genitalia best considered a girl?

Going back a few decades, my memory is that parents of infants with XY chromosomes, internal testes, and external genitalia that looked female were advised that the internal testes should be removed due to the risk of them becoming cancerous and the child should be raised as a girl because genital reconstruction would be easier. This is no longer the case. I was involved in a situation quite recently where a baby was observed as female at birth but found a few months later to have an XY DSD with functioning internal testes and the medical professionals involved were in no doubt that this baby should be raised as a boy as he had a good prospect of a normal male puberty and future fertility as a man. This was very distressing for the young mother who had to come to terms that the baby who had been her daughter for a few months was actually her son, and she needed a lot of support. It was a complex process involving several medical specialties, child protection, social care and psychologists, any of whom could (and possibly did) ask probing questions about the decision.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/08/2021 11:03

So if a child were to be born in our country today with this condition

If you mean the UK, you might find some basic information here. But, in general, the majority of babies with DSD can be registered according to their sex because there is no ambiguity, and there is a known variation. For rarer DSDs, there is information from the support groups and advocate bloggers with relevant information:

dsdfamilies.org/charity

mrkhvoice.com/

NotBadConsidering · 06/08/2021 11:06

They could potentially be marked as “I”, (capital i) there is an allowance for that in most countries on birth certificates and medical records etc.

Yes there are difficulties, and often there is a natural inclination to one sex or another. But in true ambiguity it’s better that than forcing a sex on a child which may be incongruent or historically led to surgery without consideration of what the child might want as an adult.

And it’s been made harder by trans activists who push for children who are clearly of one sex or another to be treated the same in terms of openness. One family told me everyone thinks their child is trans and they are fed up with having to explain it.

A female infant who is virilised has clitoromegaly and it’s often clear it isn’t a penis, so they aren’t raised as male. But I think it’s changing and more males with underdeveloped penises are being raised as males, whereas previously it would have been deemed unacceptable to be a boy/man with no penis. Male surgeons of old probably thought it wasn’t worthy of manhood Hmm.

PennineSpring · 06/08/2021 11:17

New video from Prof Tucker on the DSD rules for anyone wanting a brief history of how we’ve got here.

www.instagram.com/tv/CSMQvjKKmj0/?utm_medium=copy_link

nettie434 · 06/08/2021 12:15

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]I also read that 46XY conditions are more common in Sub Saharan Africa

For anyone who hasn't read about this, this is a reasonable overview (pdf is available as a free download). NB for the age of presentation or when somebody consulted a healthcare system about the children:

*Overall the median age of presentation was 10 months (IQR: 1 month–4.5 years). There was a significant relationship (p 

notagermannoun · 06/08/2021 13:13

@NotBadConsidering 'And it’s been made harder by trans activists who push for children who are clearly of one sex or another to be treated the same in terms of openness.'

The more I read about this topic, the more I feel infuriated on behalf of people with DSD. It's evident to me that the drive for inclusion, support & understanding should centre people with developmental sexual differences first and foremost. I really don't understand what 'Intersex' (which I believe has been largely discarded as a term by doctors for quite some time) is doing in the LGBTQ+ acronym at all.
How can babies and children with such complex and distressing conditions be given parity with some non-binary nitwit or kink or BDSM enthusiast? Did anyone ever ask these families if they want to be part of the 'rainbow'?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/08/2021 13:43

I don't want to derail the thread as this is more about women's health than elite sport but that is a feminist issue too.

Then you might wish to start another thread.

However, as per the blog that I posted earlier - although DSDs are relevant to this sports discussion, a number of advocates have repeatedly asked that their traumatic medical histories are not picked over or used as 'gotchas' in a largely political discussion.

orkid · 06/08/2021 14:47

So if a child were to be born in our country today with this condition, they would be defined simply as 'other'? What about the birth certificate, does this allow for it? I appreciate that there is no rush, but surely there are difficulties in raising a child to be 'to be determined' sex?

I think if there were an I or O marker on birth certificates this would be exploited more by parents sold out to gender woowoo than parents of children with DSDs who might want to keep the medical information private. In fact, calls to make these medical conditions an "identity" for children who have no say can, imo harm the child by taking away there agency in who to share their medical issues with.

It seems better to chose an interim M or F marker based on medical experise and, if further investigations/ the child's physical and psycho-social maturation indicates this was wrong then change the sex marker on official certificates.

nettie434 · 06/08/2021 15:06

Then you might wish to start another thread.

I will EmbarassingAdmissions! My comment was about the general lack of priority given to women's reproductive health, particularly in terms of overall health expenditure.

I absolutely empathise with what it must feel like to hear such public discussions about such a private subject.

NotBadConsidering · 07/08/2021 11:49

If anyone is watching the athletics, Francine Nisonyaba, a male, is running in the women’s 10,000m right now. Easy to pick, bright white dreadlocks if anyone wants to see a male amongst women.

DuncinToffee · 07/08/2021 12:02

I am watching, quite a different running style, stride

KevinBaconsJeans · 07/08/2021 13:05

Not to derail my own thread, but this might be interesting for those wondering about the treatment of babies with DSDs. It's a BBC documentary from 2000 about David Reimer, but it includes a Dr from Great Ormond St who talks about operating on babies to construct "normal" looking genitalia. I can't believe it was so recent

www.dailymotion.com/video/x225vd0

OP posts:
notagermannoun · 07/08/2021 15:24

A really interesting interview here with the Harvard biologist Carole Hooven from Meghan Murphy, where Hooven exposes the media hypocrisy, misinformation and silence around testosterone, TIM athletes, and biologically male athletes with DSDs.

felulageller · 07/08/2021 19:16

In the UK there's no reason why an XY46 would be noticed until puberty. Externally they look like girls because they have no penis. Because that's how phallocentric our society is- penis = boy, no penis = girl.

Soontobe60 · 07/08/2021 21:02

@felulageller

In the UK there's no reason why an XY46 would be noticed until puberty. Externally they look like girls because they have no penis. Because that's how phallocentric our society is- penis = boy, no penis = girl.
That’s not correct. First of all, if the mother has had amniocentesis in early pregnancy, the sex of the baby will be known. Boys are born with a range of genitalia appearance - from no visible penis, to a micro penis, etc. It’s not phallocentric to know that girls do not have a penis.
NotBadConsidering · 07/08/2021 23:29

@felulageller

In the UK there's no reason why an XY46 would be noticed until puberty. Externally they look like girls because they have no penis. Because that's how phallocentric our society is- penis = boy, no penis = girl.
There are a multitude of reasons. Non-invasive prenatal testing (NIPT) becoming more available means it will be almost obsolete to miss it soon, accuracy of antenatal scans, thorough newborn examination etc. That these athletes are from countries with low quality healthcare systems is not a coincidence but I am sceptical about whether they only find out when World Athletics gets involved Hmm.
Coconutmeg · 08/08/2021 11:47

www.worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=656101dc-7716-488a-ab96-59d37941e9ac.pdf&urlslug=C3.6%20-%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification

I’m trying to find where it says that these regulations are only for XY athletes

Coconutmeg · 08/08/2021 12:25

No worries, I’ve seen the regulations are just for the 400m - a mile events.

merrymouse · 08/08/2021 12:29
I think XY chromosomes are necessary to have any of tbe conditions listed in 2.2.
EndoplasmicReticulum · 21/08/2021 09:02

Saw this on BBC today, these athletes are continuing their success in the sprint events.
www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58267180.amp

NotBadConsidering · 21/08/2021 09:36

That picture tells you everything, doesn’t it?

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