Female Namibian runners change events due to too high testosterone

[KevinBaconsJeans]

Just spotted this on my newsfeed and very confused. I've seen on another post that there is no maximum limit for women's natural testosterone. So does that mean that this BBC article is lying by omission about the sex of the runners to create a story that isn't true?

It talks about two Namibian runners who have had to switch to different events because they have high T...

www.bbc.com/sport/africa/58029941

Extract:
Her initial excitement at an Olympic qualification however was crushed when she was informed by World Athletics that she would not be able to compete in the 400m event at the Games due to high levels of testosterone.

"In the beginning I was very down, you can't come and tell me now I am not a woman. That is really frustrating and gets me on my nerves but there's nothing we can do about it at the moment," she told BBC Sport Africa...

"It is really unfair because you cannot expect everyone to be the same, everyone to have the same abilities, we are born with different abilities, we can't be the same it doesn't make sense."

Masilingi was only informed in July by World Athletics that her testosterone levels were beyond the allowed limit for female athletes wanting to run in distances from 400m to one mile, unless they medically lower their testosterone for a period of at least six months

Typical BBC to leave out that these people are trans women

They're not trans ffs.
They have a disorder.
And please don't treat this post as meaning I think they should be racing against xx women.

@CuriousaboutSamphire. It is my understanding that women with Swyer's syndrome have a vulva, vagina and uterus, and with the help of artificial insemination, can get pregnant and give birth. As far as I am concerned, a person born with a vagina and who can become pregnant and give birth is clearly a woman regardless of chromosomes.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/

If that is not true, then I will happily read any link you can provide and will reflect on any further information.

Not really comparable to the males who are competing in the female events in the olympics, with their testosterone in a normal male range or slightly reduced, or/and with advantage of androgenised bodies (and still way outside normal female range). They most certainly don't have Sawyer's.

[quote AntsInPenzance]@CuriousaboutSamphire. It is my understanding that women with Swyer's syndrome have a vulva, vagina and uterus, and with the help of artificial insemination, can get pregnant and give birth. As far as I am concerned, a person born with a vagina and who can become pregnant and give birth is clearly a woman regardless of chromosomes.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/

If that is not true, then I will happily read any link you can provide and will reflect on any further information.[/quote]
Do they also have the much higher testosterone levels associated with other DSDs? I don't think so and therefore they would not come under this ruling is my understanding, in which case it is not at all relevant to the discussion

@Xenia They are not transwomen, ie people who choose to transition. It is likely that these athletes were identified as female at birth and their DSD was not discovered until later.

@KevinBaconsJeans

That's what I thought, and why I posted. I feel like I'm going mad. It is epic gaslighting!

How many people will read that and think "that's terrible, those poor women being singled out because their female bodies naturally produce a bit more testosterone than some women"?

OP, the IOC aren't really interested in anything but testosterone levels. So for all they care, these Namibian women are female enough for some of their events, but not female enough for others. Obviously that's ridiculous and unfit for purpose.

If you are born a girl, raised a girl, never know that you have high T levels until you train hard and see that you can excel in sport because of an unusually high genetic level of T, then good for you.

It's the IOC that have used T levels to sit in judgement over who can compete in women's events - let's not all adopt their flawed thinking to decide who is female or not!

AntsInPenzance
Your link does not say they can get pregnant with the help of artificial insemination. It says, "Women with this disorder do not produce eggs (ova), but they may be able to become pregnant with a donated egg or embryo."

@polkadots - how do you decide who is female or not?

The women's world record is about 1 second faster than Semenya's PB, so non-DSD women can run faster than Semenya

Have you seen who the record holder is for the 800m? Google it and make your own mind up if you think that is a true world record time

@Xenia

Typical BBC to leave out that these people are trans women, XY rather than XX natural born women as it were...

No they aren’t.

Transwomen are XY, because they are men.

People with DSD are usually, though not always , also biologically male , and XY, though they typically have internal gonads and ambiguous external genitalia which causes them to being mistaken for female at birth unless further investigation is done.

www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/athletics-namibian-sprinters-resurrect-paradox-dsd-rules-2021-08-03/

Quite unbiased cover in the article above.

So they were not allowed to compete in the 400m so changed to 200m? Amazing that they could change type of race so easily. Their physique must be amazing.

Didn’t Christine Mboa win the silver medal?

And set the world record for under 20 ? So another world record in the women’s race was made by someone with XY chromosomes… and the holder of the silver medal has XY chromosomes….

I wonder how the XX women in the 400m race would have done with that time to prepare for switching to the 200m race?

[quote AntsInPenzance]@CuriousaboutSamphire. It is my understanding that women with Swyer's syndrome have a vulva, vagina and uterus, and with the help of artificial insemination, can get pregnant and give birth. As far as I am concerned, a person born with a vagina and who can become pregnant and give birth is clearly a woman regardless of chromosomes.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/

If that is not true, then I will happily read any link you can provide and will reflect on any further information.[/quote]
So, what would insemination (introducing sperm) be of use to someone without any ovaries? The sperm must fertilise an ovum/ova in human reproduction. Male testes and female ovaries.

There are sets of testes in the women's games. The lads lassies competing against women and who have androgenised bodies and normal to slightly lower male level of Testosterone don't have Sawyers.

[quote AntsInPenzance]@CuriousaboutSamphire. It is my understanding that women with Swyer's syndrome have a vulva, vagina and uterus, and with the help of artificial insemination, can get pregnant and give birth. As far as I am concerned, a person born with a vagina and who can become pregnant and give birth is clearly a woman regardless of chromosomes.

medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/

If that is not true, then I will happily read any link you can provide and will reflect on any further information.[/quote]
The Medline is a bit simplistic

rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/swyer-syndrome/#affected-populations

If you really want to know about it there are some very very knowledgeable MNers, one or two have taken a lot of time to explain this before, in great and fairly simple detail. Much more than I could, my education only touched upon genetics.

Have a seacrh for one their threads... I'll see if I can remember what the latest one was called.

"The women's world record is about 1 second faster than Semenya's PB, so non-DSD women can run faster than Semenya"

"Have you seen who the record holder is for the 800m? Google it and make your own mind up if you think that is a true world record time"

None of the women's records from 100m to 800m are remotely credible. Flo-Jo, Jarmila Kratochvílova and the appropriately named Marita Koch were nailed on drug cheats who must have rattled when they ran with so many pills inside them.

@nettie434

I thought Michael Johnson was trying to explain it as diplomatically as he could. I actually think Gabby doesn't agree with the ruling either. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they agreed Michael would talk about it because Gabby is a BBC employee.

Ross Tucker gives a bit more background:

twitter.com/scienceofsport/status/1422079268637523971?s=21

I agree with Hulo that there has been some unpleasantly racist undertones to the discussions. It also conflates transgender with DSD, a longstanding problem discussed on this board.

They aren't being conflated, decisions around these issues are connected. If we decide it is fair for a male with a DSD, who goes through male puberty, to compete as a woman, it's difficult to say it is unfair to allow a transwoman to compete. This is likely why activists who want the latter have been interested in the former, they want to set a precedent for what the word "woman" means within the context of sport.

They are also linked in the minds of the public.

Polkadots. I don’t think it is the IOC who have decided that people with XY chromosomes are male and people with XX chromosomes are female. But I am glad they are using that as a guideline to make women’s sport a slightly fairer place.

If you are “born” a girl, raised a girl and think you are a girl until puberty sets in and you not only fail to menstruate and develop breasts , but in addition show typical male physical growth , muscle development and hair development patterns and your voice deepens then there is clearly something that needs investigation, at which point your elevated testosterone levels due to your internal testes pumping the stuff out and triggering your male puberty will be discovered.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Executive_Summary__5794_.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0vZ3w8WNmSS1flmmCQhqoFbFs6SdnXdxkpjcV26UbKVtA0p3WTfzNn6sM Worth a read as it explains why this DSD falls under these rules..

What is baffling is why the rules don't apply to all events and why the levels were set so far above the female range rather than being towards the bottom of the male range.

People with XX chromosomes can absolutely have DSD, there are dsds which affect both sexes, but that doesn't apply to these athletes, as explained upthread.

Semenya is nowhere near the men's standards. Semenya's 800m PB is 11 seconds slower than the UK men's record.

The women's world record is about 1 second faster than Semenya's PB, so non-DSD women can run faster than Semenya. I don't know what the answer is for people like Semenya, but she would be destroyed in the men's and her PB is in line with top-level women's times.

Bob (25) currently competes (for some reason) in the boy's under-13 class.

Bob is nowhere near the men's standards. Bob's 800m PB is 11 seconds slower than the UK men's record.

The boy's under-13 world record is about 1 second faster than Bob's PB, so 12-year-old boys can run faster than Bob. I don't know what the answer is for people like Bob, but he would be destroyed in the men's and his PB is in line with top-level boy's times.

@korawick, I believe people with Swyers syndrome have very vestigial testes, probably more akin to residual tissue, so probably not capable of producing testosterone in any quantity. They are usually removed as they can cause problems later by turning cancerous.

The women's world record is about 1 second faster than Semenya's PB, so non-DSD women can run faster than Semenya. I don't know what the answer is for people like Semenya, but she would be destroyed in the men's and her PB is in line with top-level women's times.

But there are lots of men who aren't as fast as that, because we are talking about elite athletes.

My husband runs most days. He is not fast. He is not as fast as CS. I don't imagine he would ever have been a winner even at high school track and field. I imagine he's have improved his fitness, his form, but he's never going to get near the Olympics as a man or woman.

There's no "answer" for him other than, running isn't your sport. Do it for fun but not to win. That's true of most men in the world.

[quote viques]@korawick, I believe people with Swyers syndrome have very vestigial testes, probably more akin to residual tissue, so probably not capable of producing testosterone in any quantity. They are usually removed as they can cause problems later by turning cancerous.[/quote]
Exactly - so they are not in any way comparable or relevant for this discussion. The PP who keeps bringing it up has completely missed the point

Sorry posted in the wrong thread

The women's world record is about 1 second faster than Semenya's PB, so non-DSD women can run faster than Semenya. I don't know what the answer is for people like Semenya, but she would be destroyed in the men's and her PB is in line with top-level women's times.

You could say the same thing about any man who did not qualify for the Olympics because their times are similar to the women’s (ie too slow for the men’s). And the answer for them is that it is unfortunate that they cannot fulfil their dream of going to the Olympics.

Agree with @TheSkatesOfCoachBombay - I've often thought a paralympics classification would be the fairest outcome, surely.
I don't think I've ever seen it discussed publicly as an option though - has anyone else?