Menopause Cafe confusion

[Roseness]

I was thinking of joining this online menopause discussion group, but I am very uncomfortable with the idea that it's "open to all regardless of age or gender". Am I being unfair? Can anyone be comfortable discussing embarrassing issues like incontinence and vaginal atrophy in a mixed age /gender space? I feel that menopausal woman are regarded as so irrelevant and unimportant that no one cares about genuinely supporting us with this really difficult life-phase. Am I just old-fashioned with hang-ups?

www.eventbrite.com/e/menopause-cafe-south-london-tickets-162198948421?fbclid=IwAR1Cx3t6c0v-wZK0dyT1bRMhQiwpu97_5s57lBSXMjCpvR-B440sEDM7Bm0

Nope. You're spot on. I have less than zero inclination to discuss these issues with males listening in, unless they are medical professionals (even then, I'd prefer females, and I'd prefer females who've gone through it themselves, too, if it were possible).

I don't care what gender they identify with so long as it is just female sex.

It’s a good idea to have a space to discuss menopause and I also agree with your point. There’s no way I would attend or dial in to a menopause event that was open to anyone. Could you message the organizer, thank them for setting up a needed event and explain the problem as you have to us?

Yeh nah! I’ve no intention of setting around discussing the sad state of my vag with men there no matter how they present

[Disclaimer - I'm not yet near menopause, but have gone through my fair share of discussing childbirth, subsequent injuries, pregnancies, breastfeeding etc - so I think I have some relevant experience to draw on even if it's not quite the same.]

I actually think there's a reasonable case for inclusion here, in the sense that -

• I would see those who are biologically female but not identifying as such (trans men, nb people who are female bodied) as being absolutely part of this conversation, as they will also experience menopause.
• some women (often very sadly) go through menopause extremely young, and may not want to be immediately quizzed on that as soon as they step through the virtual door
• menopause is relevant to younger women who may want to prepare for it (I'm politically and personally interested when I hear older friends discussing their experiences), and older women who may want to reflect on past experiences.

I'd be more comfortable if they had phrased it in a way that referenced this stuff, like maybe "open to all for whom menopause is relevant, regardless of age and gender".

I think that if you take the view (I do) that there are circumstances where sex is more relevant than gender and therefore eg do not want male-bodied sex offenders in women's prisons, it's logically consistent to recognise that (at least sometimes) trans-identified people with female bodies should be included in women's spaces.

Menopause is not a spectator sport.

Surely then Nell you need to phrase it much more specifically

“Open to women and transmen”

Making it open to anyone regardless of gender means men can come along.

@Tibtom

I don't care what gender they identify with so long as it is just female sex.

^This.

Trans men and non-binary female people. Fine.

Males, no.

Transmen should be welcome to come along, of course they should. Females experience menopause, I have no issue discussing these issues (or, fwiw, sharing any spaces) with transmen. But the event should clearly be for females.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Surely then Nell you need to phrase it much more specifically

“Open to women and transmen”

Making it open to anyone regardless of gender means men can come along.

Yes, fair point.

I'm thinking about transmen and that there may be differences depending upon age of transition and lifetime exposure to testosterone.

tbh, I'd think the best people to understand transmen's experience of menopause would be those with comparable experience.

Younger women experience menopause if they've had ovaries removed (say). I realise that some transmen or non-binary people will have done similarly, but not all of them. Is there not a difference between experiencing menopause as a consequence of surgery and those who experience it as a consequence of exposure to cross-sex hormones? And would the menopause differ depending on the duration of that?

I’ve no problems with discussing menopause with men or young women- it’s important that it’s seen as normal and not taboo.

BUT if it’s a group that functions as a support network to help women going through it, I see no reason for men to be included.

Normalise discussion in the wider sense- leave spaces for those going through it.

I view it in the same way I would a group for mental or physical health issues. Don’t hide them away but there’s no place for anyone not affected in a space that is to help those going through it.

The Menopause Cafes are a registered charity, run in a particular format and they are open to men and women, always have been. They are literally just a cafe where people go along to talk to each other about menopause, they aren't support groups or locations for talks, promotions etc. Just somewhere people can go to to chat to other people who get it.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I'm thinking about transmen and that there may be differences depending upon age of transition and lifetime exposure to testosterone.

tbh, I'd think the best people to understand transmen's experience of menopause would be those with comparable experience.

Younger women experience menopause if they've had ovaries removed (say). I realise that some transmen or non-binary people will have done similarly, but not all of them. Is there not a difference between experiencing menopause as a consequence of surgery and those who experience it as a consequence of exposure to cross-sex hormones? And would the menopause differ depending on the duration of that?

Absolutely. Women who experience an early menopause are in a totally different category to women who identify as men. Their conversations and therapeutic needs - emotional and physical - will be categorically different. Losing one’s reproductive capacity at an age (say thirties) when others may be starting families will be a devastating blow to many. Appropriate HRT may be difficult to arrange (some older women aren’t even offered it after hysterectomy, I know of at least one in her 40s who wasn’t as “she’d be going through the menopause naturally soon anyway”). Let transmen have appropriate care but let women in this sometimes tragic situation be given the care and support they need without distractions.

I have no desire to discuss menopause with other women's husbands.

@EverythingDelegated

The Menopause Cafes are a registered charity, run in a particular format and they are open to men and women, always have been. They are literally just a cafe where people go along to talk to each other about menopause, they aren't support groups or locations for talks, promotions etc. Just somewhere people can go to to chat to other people who get it.

As a menopausal woman this format is not for me.

I don’t mind who wants to go along to an event as long as the content of the event and the language used doesn’t end up being policed, with “menopausal women” replaced by “menopausal people” and “vaginal atrophy” becoming “front hole atrophy” etc.

I wouldn’t dream of going along to an event specifically set up to talk about the needs of those who’ve been through ‘sex reassignment surgery’ and insist they use only words that I deem suitable, so as long as there’s none of that bullshit and the menopausal and peri women in attendance are able to speak freely about their own experiences in relation to their female sexed bodies, fine. The minute there was a whiff of the trans agenda taking over I’d be out of there in a shot

somewhere people can go to to chat to other people who get it

How can any man 'get' the menopause?

I assume they’re based on the death cafe model which makes sense to be open to everyone

I don’t want to discuss my menopause issues in front of men so it’s not for me

I imagine that this formula might work ok in a physical space, where there are lots of quiet conversations going on-and of course our partners are massively affected by this, and it's good if they can chat to each other. But this might be tricky on Zoom unless there is careful use of breakout rooms.
I completely agree on Transmen, of course. I think that younger women going through menopause probably need their own spaces if I'm honest, because there are different issues involved.

Men obviously don't "get it" as women do, but if they are living with a menopausal
women they may well be interested and want to support their partner and I think its a good thing that there is somewhere they can go together if they choose. It is based on the Death Cafes, yes. Obviously some women prefer a women only organisation for discussions of this nature but this space is designed to be for both and has been very successful. I've never actually been to one but I'd happily take DH and chat to other women and their partners.

I have just come across this thread. I am one of the Menopause Cafe South London organisers and it is me who does all the social media.
The reason I came across this thread is that I was googling trans Menopause Cafe to see if there are any. After speaking to my friend who is a trans man I wanted to see how best to provide a safe space for anyone with a womb to discuss the menopause. He said that trans folk may feel more comfortable and safer in their own group because not everyone is as accepting. Reading this thread I think it has confirmed this as there are some (not all) quite negative comments about trans men who have a womb on here which makes me sad. My intention is to create safe spaces for people to feel comfortable to talk freely.
You are right the Menopause Cafe model does insist that we do need to be open to allow any gender or age to the cafes. So if a trans specific Menopause Cafe was set up we would have to check with the founder to see if it could still be called a Menopause Cafe. It might have to have a slightly different title as it is not in line with the Menopause Cafe rules.

I will discuss the views on here about men being allowed making some women uncomfortable with Rachel Weiz the founder. If anyone wants to email to find out what she says email me on [email protected].
Funnily enough we were discussing about men being able to join at the one we had yesterday. In the two years I have been co-running the Menopause Cafe South London we have had a couple of men sign up in Eventbrite but I always email them back to find out about why they want to come before sending login details and both times I haven’t heard back.
I think it is very important for all men to understand the menopause and so if there was a man very concerned about their partner and wanting to find out how they can support them we would allow them to join. As I said this has never happened so if you are thinking of coming please do as it has always been an all women environment. The next one is on 30th April at 3pm GMT on Zoom.

I must say that I totally disagree about limiting the age as I believe the menopause should be taught in schools as keeping women in the dark about what really happens until it does causes a lot of distress. We actively encourage young women to come so they can be fully educated in the menopause so that their journey can be an informed one. Also there are cases of early menopause in women as young as 15 so it is very important to keep this open.
Feel free to ask me anything on here or email. Thanks Victoria

I have a question. Why are men invited? I don't understand that at all. If men need support then surely they can set up their own group. What woman wants to discuss their menopause with men they don't know?

Also: which comments about transmen bother you, Victoria? Hasn't everyone said they are happy for all females to be there? Not sure why that makes you sad?

Yes, I think that the point about transmen is that they are of course welcome, but that (as you say) the regular format Menopause cafe might not be right for them and they might welcome a separate space that takes into account their specific needs given the direct relationship between menopause and having a woman's body.

@PaleBlueMoonlight

Yes, I think that the point about transmen is that they are of course welcome, but that (as you say) the regular format Menopause cafe might not be right for them and they might welcome a separate space that takes into account their specific needs given the direct relationship between menopause and having a woman's body.

Well put