Menopause Cafe confusion

[Roseness]

I was thinking of joining this online menopause discussion group, but I am very uncomfortable with the idea that it's "open to all regardless of age or gender". Am I being unfair? Can anyone be comfortable discussing embarrassing issues like incontinence and vaginal atrophy in a mixed age /gender space? I feel that menopausal woman are regarded as so irrelevant and unimportant that no one cares about genuinely supporting us with this really difficult life-phase. Am I just old-fashioned with hang-ups?

www.eventbrite.com/e/menopause-cafe-south-london-tickets-162198948421?fbclid=IwAR1Cx3t6c0v-wZK0dyT1bRMhQiwpu97_5s57lBSXMjCpvR-B440sEDM7Bm0

@VictoriaK71

The people with wombs statement was not meant to offend at all.

I am new to MN and only came on here as my specific group was mentioned.

I appreciate all your points of view but like someone said about a menopause cafe with men that wasn’t right for them, I won’t be hanging around on here but I wish you all well. 😊

That’s a shame. This is a large number of women who care about the menopause and have or will experience it, who would champion a model we felt supported women in menopause, and you seem to run a group supporting discussion on menopause, so you’d think it’d be worthwhile for you to hang around. And if you don’t agree with everything you hear from your target market, perhaps you should ask yourself why you disagree rather than what it sounds like- leaving to stop hearing the things you disagree with. The women you want to support won’t stop thinking them and feeling these things, or going through menopause for that matter.

Why is it that they all use 😊?

Ah. So not in fact a target market inclusive of all women experiencing menopause with the goal of supporting them.

But a target market of anyone of any sex who share a particular political view, with the goal of supporting this .

Yes. Not inclusive then. And definitely not for me.

I won't include a smiley if you don't mind, since I don't feel particularly good about this conversation or the attitude towards women that it represents. My body is not your political arena.

Never changes does it?

No ability to listen, engage, discuss, actually respond to women's concerns.

Just a fast run away in horror that there are people not like me!

If you find women talking about their bodies and experiences to be this threatening then really, you may wish to choose something less upsetting to lead a group on? Knitting possibly.

I certainly wouldn't consider attending any group discussing personal/ health stuff with makes present.
I'm getting more and more annoyed at the various excuses being flung at us when we object. If we say 'no', we are exclusionary,bigoted and negative. If those insults can't be levelled at us,it's our 'tone' that's the problem.🙄 Funny that I never see men getting pulled up for their 'tone',just like men are never shrill,strident or bossy.
Menopause isn't great,but it has given me one gift,that I've got zero fucks left to give.

I signed up to the menopause cafe a couple of years ago on Facebook. One day, there was a post by someone asking if a trans woman could join as the hormones they were taking to transition from being a man to being a woman were causing symptoms. They were welcomed with open arms on the thread.
For me, that was an instant nope. I am not joining an organisation that panders to male bodied people, some of whom are probably experiencing autogynaephilia. Nope nope nope.
Menopause is something women and only women experience. There needs to be a specific group for trans men as their experiences and needs will be different based on the male hormones they are taking.

You get the impression that the most important thing about the menopause of the female body is how it can be used to involve and facilitate male people.

@VictoriaK71

The people with wombs statement was not meant to offend at all.

I am new to MN and only came on here as my specific group was mentioned.

I appreciate all your points of view but like someone said about a menopause cafe with men that wasn’t right for them, I won’t be hanging around on here but I wish you all well. 😊

Hi Victoria, it was my comment that you quoted earlier on and I would like to clarify that my comments are indeed a result of being silenced, ‘tone policed’ and dehumanised to accommodate the wishes of a tiny minority of people.

As a menopausal woman it would have been very helpful if my ex had taken a moment to understand a bit more about menopause. I absolutely wouldn’t want to stop anyone from attending or learning about something that affects almost all women. What I will not tolerate is the removal of the word women from that statement. If you want to add on “transmen, female non-binary people and any other identity which you feel is relevant” feel free. But as a woman, an adult human female, I will not be ok with woman's bodies and experiences being hushed up and replaced with people/holes etc as we have seen time and time again.

@beastlyslumber It’s a really good idea.

I am only in my 30’s so hopefully menopause is still a ways off but I would be happy to join a group devoted to the menopause experience but only if it was by women for women only.

No chance in hell would I join a group for discussing female bodily functions that allowed males in it, no matter how those males identify or present themselves.

I’m menopausal. Most of my friends are too. There is no way any of us would feel comfortable discussing our issues with strange men the group. Just no way. It’s hard enough for Middle Age women to discuss it with each other as we have been socialised to just get on with it. Our mothers didn’t talk about it. So in summary any woman I know going thorough some very difficult changes would NOT discuss this with random men on the internet or in real life. Same as a man would not discuss his inability to get an erection with a random group of women unless he was doing it for sexual reasons.

If any man would like my menopausal symptoms I’m happy to identify out of being a woman.

@Tibtom

I don't care what gender they identify with so long as it is just female sex.

Yes I’d ask if this us a single sex event - or not.

I cannot believe what I’m reading. The concept is a great idea. But I would NOT attend If males were there (not transmen I mean trans women or men). I agree men, boys, girls need educating on the menopause but that’s not happening with my experiences thank you. Bloody hell we now can’t even talk about the menopause with women without having to include biological men. It’s alway women. It’s like men attending breast screening sessions with their partners. I don’t want men there either.

It’s hard enough for Middle Age women to discuss it with each other as we have been socialised to just get on with it. Our mothers didn’t talk about it.

This. This is key.

What all these people who are accepting the use of dehumanised language as replacement and not additive (and I know many women will also not accept the additive language either) is that many of us have experienced already the dehumanisation.

The fact that very few of us discuss it with our friends or even our sisters or mothers is that this issue HAS always been dehumanised.

None of us want to discuss it with males in the group. And very few will want to attend a group using terminology like 'those with a womb'. That is not even accurate for a good percentage of women going through menopause even.

Does people honestly think that using the term 'people with wombs' is appropriate to menopausal women? What about those without a womb? Do they have to go somewhere else?

Once you pull one thread ... more unravels. But that is what is happening with 'this' type of inclusion. It is not being well done at all.

AgathaMystery, I am so very sad after reading your post, sending every best wish that you find a path through that works for you.

Please take as much care of yourself as you can, and if it helps in any small way, know you are not alone.

Ps. Fuck night sweats in particular.

@RockPaperScience

AgathaMystery, I am so very sad after reading your post, sending every best wish that you find a path through that works for you.

Please take as much care of yourself as you can, and if it helps in any small way, know you are not alone.

Ps. Fuck night sweats in particular.

Thanks lovely! That’s really kind of you.

For any other women in the grip of the peri on pause, I am v early 40’s & I have started HRT & I am sure that soon I will start to feel better. I have been seen & diagnosed & seen (face to face) 4 or 5 times in the past 12 months. This is incredible & I know it. I work in Women’s health & have pulled in every favour I can to get to this point.

How other women are coping I don’t know.

It’s hard to admit your symptoms to a colleague in a professional setting & be vulnerable & they be your primary doctor & then work with them on an equal footing the same day. These are some of the things that men cannot understand. Not even my lovely husband.

I know I’m going to be okay but I do wonder about other women. How many have left children and marriages and lives when actually maybe some needed a decent endocrinologist and a whack of hormones? Heartbreaking.

Beig a middle aged woman is not performance art for the entertainment of men.

If you find women talking about their bodies and experiences to be this threatening then really, you may wish to choose something less upsetting to lead a group on? Knitting possibly.

Knitting? It’s a savage purity spiral out there in the yarn world. I’d go for something gentler, like cage fighting.

Wasn't there an almighty row over on Revelry at some point?

Yes

unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a-purity-spiral/

Huge row.

Also they had patterns for 'packers' for girls on there. It's why I left.

What's the point of menopause cafe if not to support women? If that is indeed the purpose, why must said women be used as tools to educate men?

Men absolutely should learn about menopause, but the women going through it shouldn't have to explain it to them. Why not have a different model whereby facilitators inform them instead? I imagine uptake would be low, in which case if find myself asking again why women can't just have their own groups that meet their specific needs.

Some people see to think that "inclusion" is the holy grail of modern virtues, but to my mind that shows a lack of critical thinking and empathy.

Oh I see that Victoria doesn't actually want to hear from the kind of women uterus people who would likely be most interested in her product. As you were.

@WelcomeMarch

If you find women talking about their bodies and experiences to be this threatening then really, you may wish to choose something less upsetting to lead a group on? Knitting possibly.

Knitting? It’s a savage purity spiral out there in the yarn world. I’d go for something gentler, like cage fighting.

I wish all the women on here all the best.
I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding on here maybe from my part too.
Just to clarify.
Menopause Cafe’s are for women but men are allowed to attend but they don’t so in my experience they have only women there.
My comment ‘those with wombs’ was possibly a little insensitive and was not intended to be.
Menopause Cafes are discussion groups and not support groups.
No one who runs or comes to them claims to be an expert.
The people at the Menopause Cafe I co host are very supportive of each other and have been coming for years. They have found a safe space for support in their time of need.
I must say I haven’t found Mums Net very friendly. Maybe I was a little too confrontational myself with my initial comment but I have since acknowledged that and have apologised. I only commented as it came up in Google. I will be leaving as it doesn’t feel the right place for me. As has been discussed on here different people feel more comfortable in different spaces and we need to choose those that work for us but wish you all well. 😊

I really can’t find enough eye rolls in my head to comment to Victoria. Please do run back to your woke echo chamber on the internet and leave us middle aged menopausal women to support ourselves. I can’t think of anything more likely to induce my menopausal rage than meeting a perky Victoria telling me to ‘be kind’ at a menopause discussion group.