Menopause Cafe confusion

[Roseness]

I was thinking of joining this online menopause discussion group, but I am very uncomfortable with the idea that it's "open to all regardless of age or gender". Am I being unfair? Can anyone be comfortable discussing embarrassing issues like incontinence and vaginal atrophy in a mixed age /gender space? I feel that menopausal woman are regarded as so irrelevant and unimportant that no one cares about genuinely supporting us with this really difficult life-phase. Am I just old-fashioned with hang-ups?

www.eventbrite.com/e/menopause-cafe-south-london-tickets-162198948421?fbclid=IwAR1Cx3t6c0v-wZK0dyT1bRMhQiwpu97_5s57lBSXMjCpvR-B440sEDM7Bm0

@VictoriaK71
‘Anyone with a womb’
Can’t you see how dehumanising this phrase is? It’s such a backwards step to use such phrases to describe something that only females possess. It’s such a backwards step to pretend to females that they are really men because they say so. We need to be totally honest - a female can present any way they choose, give themselves a male name, male or they/them pronouns but they will always be female.
I would absolutely welcome any female to a workshop on menopause, no matter their age, sexual orientation or how they present. Males? No. They don’t belong.

It is because like the Death Cafe model it is about inclusion to discuss a subject that is often thought of as taboo and not discussed openly. If we don’t invite men into this conversation that we will continue to think we need to hide away our ‘women’s problems’ as if they are something that men shouldn’t be troubled with. In allowing men to join we are inviting them to understand how difficult the menopause can be for many women and to open up the conversation. As I said it would be a brave man to join for the wrong reasons. If they thought it was a good idea to come along and snigger in the side lines about women discussing their vaginas they really wouldn’t last 2 seconds and would soon be wanting to leave 🤣.

I just felt sad about the tone of this comment. I understand that they are not discriminating or anti trans but knowing trans people who find life very difficult I felt it was not very supportive. Of course we would not police words people could use.

“I don’t mind who wants to go along to an event as long as the content of the event and the language used doesn’t end up being policed, with “menopausal women” replaced by “menopausal people” and “vaginal atrophy” becoming “front hole atrophy” etc.

I wouldn’t dream of going along to an event specifically set up to talk about the needs of those who’ve been through ‘sex reassignment surgery’ and insist they use only words that I deem suitable, so as long as there’s none of that bullshit and the menopausal and peri women in attendance are able to speak freely about their own experiences in relation to their female sexed bodies, fine. The minute there was a whiff of the trans agenda taking over I’d be out of there in a shot“

Very well put thank you.

I’ve reread this thread & I can’t see any negative comments about transmen. Not one. All everone has said is that transmen may well need a different group either because it would be more comfortable for them. Ice seen absolutely no one say transmen should be excluded

People have said men shouldn’t be allowed. Transmen are women and therefore fine. TW are men and therefore not fine.

I think suggesting anyone has said otherwise is pretty unfair

Victoria, from your comment, you're looking to provide a trans specific space - fab. Are there any plans to provide a female single sex space also?

Or will there be a general 'all ages and genders' group (for which men are welcome, even if so far, there haven't been any male attendees) and a specific trans group. I'd be interested to know what would happen if there was also a request for a female single sex group?

@VictoriaK71 Reading this thread I think it has confirmed this as there are some (not all) quite negative comments about trans men who have a womb on here which makes me sad.

Are we looking at the same thread? I can't see any 'quite negative' comments about any biological female attending the Menopause Cafe.

The only caveat I saw was that as transmen may have their bodies put into menopause at a different age and for specific reasons (if they have their female reproductive system surgically removed for identity purposes) they might benefit from meetings more specific to their needs.

In fact it was suggested that you could state that it is open to women and transmen was to highlight how you could be inclusive of all biological females. Or is it aiming to also be inclusive of biological males of any gender? I think that would be a sticky wicket for many women. You might then get women feeling a bit icky having irrelevant spectators as such.

If we don’t invite men into this conversation that we will continue to think we need to hide away our ‘women’s problems’ as if they are something that men shouldn’t be troubled with. In allowing men to join we are inviting them to understand how difficult the menopause can be for many women and to open up the conversation.

You are conflating two different and incompatible things. Yes, men need to be educated on the menopause. Specific training can be arranged for this (as it is for managers in my workplace). Allowing them to come alone to a space where women seek support, and have those women feel they are being gawped at, is not appropriate. I simply wouldn’t attend this kind of event (and I’m having severe perimenopause symptoms). I’m not a learning opportunity for a man, and I don’t feel comfortable discussing my symptoms in front of men. Separate out the aims of educating men and supporting women and provide tailored events for each.

I agree it wasn’t the words it was the tone but actually that isn’t my main point. I was explaining why men and younger people should be allowed for genuine reasons. Really appreciate that women still feel uncomfortable speaking in front of men but actually on Zoom it is much easier to leave if you feel uncomfortable with anyone in the group and we do make sure everyone either shows themselves on screen or speaks. We remove people who join and don’t speak, show their video or tell us on the chat why they can’t do either of these things. 😊

I did mention this. It isn’t us who make the rules that is Rachel Weiz from the Menopause Cafe. We are just one of the many cafes.
I am going to discuss this situation of some women feeling uncomfortable with men being allowed to join.
Yes if a women only group was requested this could be set up like the trans only group or a men only group but I believe it would need to be called something different to a Menopause Cafe. Maybe a Menopause Discussion Group and wouldn’t be advertised on the Menopause Cafe website. 😊

@VictoriaK71

I agree it wasn’t the words it was the tone but actually that isn’t my main point. I was explaining why men and younger people should be allowed for genuine reasons. Really appreciate that women still feel uncomfortable speaking in front of men but actually on Zoom it is much easier to leave if you feel uncomfortable with anyone in the group and we do make sure everyone either shows themselves on screen or speaks. We remove people who join and don’t speak, show their video or tell us on the chat why they can’t do either of these things. 😊

So no problems with the words, you’re just tone policing? Women not being kind enough for you?

Why should women have to leave the group because men make them feel uncomfortable? This is where “inclusion” leads, to the very people who are supposed to benefit from the “support” being excluded.

@GCAcademic

If we don’t invite men into this conversation that we will continue to think we need to hide away our ‘women’s problems’ as if they are something that men shouldn’t be troubled with. In allowing men to join we are inviting them to understand how difficult the menopause can be for many women and to open up the conversation.

You are conflating two different and incompatible things. Yes, men need to be educated on the menopause. Specific training can be arranged for this (as it is for managers in my workplace). Allowing them to come alone to a space where women seek support, and have those women feel they are being gawped at, is not appropriate. I simply wouldn’t attend this kind of event (and I’m having severe perimenopause symptoms). I’m not a learning opportunity for a man, and I don’t feel comfortable discussing my symptoms in front of men. Separate out the aims of educating men and supporting women and provide tailored events for each.

This.

I am a menopausal woman and I also wouldn't attend this kind of event.

As I said these are not rules set by me or the other women running our specific group but those set by www.menopausecafesouthlondon.com

Sorry wrong address www.menopausecafe.com bloody predictive text changed it in the post 🥴

I’m beginning to loathe the word tone

Tone is in the eye of the beholder….everyone on this thread seemed really careful about how they phrased their posts

Its not fair that you can write a really supportive post inclusive of trans people and then someone rocks up and says oh the words are ok…its the tone

I am going to discuss this situation of some women feeling uncomfortable with men being allowed to join

That would be good

Yes if a women only group was requested this could be set up like the trans only group or a men only group but I believe it would need to be called something different to a Menopause Cafe. Maybe a Menopause Discussion Group and wouldn’t be advertised on the Menopause Cafe website.

It says on the website that the groups could be female only.

In general Menopause Cafes are open to, and respectful of, people of all ages and genders (or none). However, it is fine to have Menopause Cafes for specific groups e.g. women only. Wherever possible these should be facilitated by people who are from that group.

Re age I’m nearing 40 and I’d certainly go to one at work and would have since starting work to understand more about this thing I would go through and how it might affect me.

I totally hold my hands up if I misinterpreted what the comment intended.
My main point is to explain why the www.menopausecafes.com think everyone should be allowed to attend. The Menopause Cafe South London do not make these rules we just have to adhere to them if we want to use the title Menopause Cafe.
Really I don’t want to fight with anyone as the Menopause Cafe is to support. Would love you all to come along and see what it is actually like which is a warm, supportive, nurturing space where we all feel safe and comfortable. I hope you all have a great day and it has been good to discuss a very important subject. 😊

Sorry predictive text it is www.menopausecafe.com

@VictoriaK71 did you actually read my comment? You are wrong when you say it is against the rules to have a woman only session. It's on the website that you can, I quoted.

Tone wasn't negative either. Comments and tone were positively inclusive of all biological females (irrespective of whether they proclaim a gender identity, or how that expresses itself). Makes sense really as a support group. All biological females, who live long enough, will go through this as it is specific to our bodies.

Maybe it was the punctuation?

It's not even just about the creeps and voyeurs, or the transwomen misusing menopause support groups for personal validation. Even one entirely well intentioned man being admitted to a group intended for women can result in the purpose of the group being derailed, both because due to our social conditioning some women will automatically focus on and centre the man and because even entirely well intentioned men who only want to support their partners often don't see when they're hijacking the narrative or mansplaining. I'm all for men learning about the menopause, but a mutual support group for women should not be required to take on that role as well.

I can understand why transmen might want a group of their own.

Oooh that is really interesting thank you for bringing that to my attention. That hadn’t been made clear but really good to know. 👍🏻😊 Here is the weblink for others to look at too. My previous web links were wrong but this is correct www.menopausecafe.net/

Sorry will get there in the end it is www.menopausecafe.net/ thanks for your patience 😊🙏🏼

Only biological females, rather!