Menopause Cafe confusion

[Roseness]

I was thinking of joining this online menopause discussion group, but I am very uncomfortable with the idea that it's "open to all regardless of age or gender". Am I being unfair? Can anyone be comfortable discussing embarrassing issues like incontinence and vaginal atrophy in a mixed age /gender space? I feel that menopausal woman are regarded as so irrelevant and unimportant that no one cares about genuinely supporting us with this really difficult life-phase. Am I just old-fashioned with hang-ups?

www.eventbrite.com/e/menopause-cafe-south-london-tickets-162198948421?fbclid=IwAR1Cx3t6c0v-wZK0dyT1bRMhQiwpu97_5s57lBSXMjCpvR-B440sEDM7Bm0

Also: which comments about transmen bother you, Victoria? Hasn't everyone said they are happy for all females to be there? Not sure why that makes you sad?

Yes I was perplexed by that comment too.

Maybe it was the punctuation?

Punctuation is a bitch to be fair

(Hopefully there is not a mumsnet poster called punctuation 😳)

Sorry totally didn’t read this properly. Trying to reply to too many comment 🤦🏻‍♀️. Thanks so much that is really good to know. 😊

@VictoriaK71 I will never be comfortable with men (however they identify) being involved in a group where I am expected to discuss not only the extremely personal symptoms and consequences of my menopause and I certainly won't get involved with any group that is run by someone who comes across as you do. This is not a personal insult however you come across as very confrontational (possibly because you feel attacked) rather than conciliatory, you are basically implying that we are either bigots or transphobic and are minimizing our (women) feelings whilst lecturing us on why we should be happy to not have a female only group and be happy to be a teaching example for men.
I suggest that you have a think about the tone YOU are using and why you think that it is appropriate then you should apologise for the disrespect that you have shown the women on this thread

From the website:
* Menopause Cafes are not support groups
* Menopause Cafes are not an opportunity to give people information about the menopause, regardless of how useful or important this information is.
*Menopause Cafes are not a method for community engagement, research or consultation.

So it's really just people sitting around chatting while drinking tea?

I have apologised if my interpretation was wrong. Totally up for holding my hands up if I have misunderstood.

Really only want to explain why the Charity of the Menopause Cafe (not me) decided they want conversations open for all. Though I have been now told that women only Menopause cafes can happen 😊 according to the Menopause Cafe website.

Been good to chat to you all. 😊💛

Yes 👍🏻

I don’t think Viktorias tone is very confrontational, a few misunderstandings perhaps. It’s not her fault the menopause cafe is an established format with men welcome, and she’s taken on board the clarifications. Transmen should be welcomed in my opinion, they may not all want their own group, while I’d happily arrange their own group (if possible) I’d hate them to feel unwelcome in a group of women.

Thank you 🙏🏼

Transmen should be welcomed in my opinion, they may not all want their own group, while I’d happily arrange their own group (if possible) I’d hate them to feel unwelcome in a group of women.

As would we all. However, including members of the opposite sex is another matter.

Yes me too, I think TM must need a lot of support with menopause. Going through it atm in my early 50s, it must be awful to go through it in your early 20s. Given what we know about how little information TM seem to be given generally about what happens, I expect they get told to expect “vaginal dryness” just like us older women rather than an accurate description of the hideousness of vaginal atrophy for example

So ridiculous, why does everything revolve around not hurting men's feelings now. Women are supposedly the fairer sex and we can never have a reaction to anything.

Victoria

Perhaps you are new to MN and don’t realise that we are ‘tone policed’ constantly. And it ranges from people telling us how ‘sad’ they are to calling us bigots.

If women who are menopausal such as I am are saying that they don’t want to be dehumanised by being called ‘people with wombs’ and would feel uncomfortable having language used like that to accommodate someone else’s needs, please be aware that we are responding to the constant barrage of feeling that our needs are being pushed to the background for someone else’s.

I appreciate that you have apologised, but I also hope that you understand. Absolutely transitioned females should be included. But to then use the language they insist on and that language only is actually detrimental to others as well.

If someone starts describing me as a womb haver at a menopause cafe, I am likely to leave immediately because for my entire life I have had doctors treat my symptoms as being of no consequence, being psyochosomatic. It had been dehumanising. To go to a group that is intended to be a support group that continues that dehumanising, will simply mean I will leave it immediately.

And I fully understand the need for the language, I have transitioned females in my life on a daily basis.

Some of us will cope with additive language. But I will not cope with only inclusive language.

And I also would be suspect of a group who seeks to censure others for needing to not be dehumanised.

And by doctors, I mean male doctors. Treating my significant menstrual pain as being all ‘in my head’ and that other women cope why can’t you. And so on and so on.

The people with wombs statement was not meant to offend at all.

I am new to MN and only came on here as my specific group was mentioned.

I appreciate all your points of view but like someone said about a menopause cafe with men that wasn’t right for them, I won’t be hanging around on here but I wish you all well. 😊

Ok. I get it. I think I understand quite well.

And as a woman going through menopause who would likely be using your area's cafe, I do understand.

I actually really love the idea of a menopause cafe - for people who experience menopause, i.e. females. I'm going through menopause now and there's not much information or support out there. I would totally go to this thing, if it were for females only.

Anyone want to start one with me?

I think it is a great idea beastly.

Use language that doesn't reduce us to body parts or is additive, and I would support these cafes.

@VictoriaK71

The people with wombs statement was not meant to offend at all.

I am new to MN and only came on here as my specific group was mentioned.

I appreciate all your points of view but like someone said about a menopause cafe with men that wasn’t right for them, I won’t be hanging around on here but I wish you all well. 😊

People with wombs....brilliant if you go through menopause because you had a hysterectomy.

I declined to attend a workshop HR organised because no way am I discussing my menopause symptoms with male colleagues present. If people can't see including males excludes females, there is no helping them.

It's this thing of being inclusively exclusionary again.

Fashionable, yet deeply unhelpful. See: mission creep.

Crumbs.

I think I would have considered a menopause cafe but probably not now. I’m going to get flamed for this but right now I am in the grip of awful perimenopausal symptoms. It’s awful. I can’t describe it but I have had days where I have thought it might be easier to be alone (ending my marriage). I’ve thought it might be easier to quit my job than struggle on. I’ve thought it might be easier to not be alive.

Am I prepared to discuss this with random men who wear womanhood as a costume? No. And I know no one on here expects me to.

Am I prepared to discuss this with random women who tried to shrug off their biological sex and effectively opted to do this (menopause) to themselves? No, I’m not.

No one in their right mind would choose this for themselves. No one. For those who have, I have no time for you today & I pity you deeply.

It's this thing of being inclusively exclusionary again.

Fashionable, yet deeply unhelpful. See: mission creep.

yes. Fashionable, yet deeply unhelpful.

Enter a space, start censuring and not listening seems to be way of things.

The censuring get fuck right off.

Am I prepared to discuss this with random women who tried to shrug off their biological sex and effectively opted to do this (menopause) to themselves? No, I’m not.

I think this is entirely fair enough. I don't necessarily think young FTM trans people are the best fit for a menopause group but I suspect all the discussion of health issues within trans groups centres around what males feel is important.

Am I prepared to discuss this with random men?

Yes, that, exactly. How the male person identifies isn't relevant in any way. I won't be discussing my body and this extremely challenging, personal time in my life with any male who isn't immediate family and needs to know - male colleagues, absolutely not! Male strangers even less.

Why male people would feel this is a situation they want and expect to be involved in to me creates a red flag about that person and makes me wonder: why do you feel women would want to share this with you? How do you think your presence is going to inhibit and discourage those it was created to meet the needs of? Is that a good thing? Which women who really need it will not be there because you feel you want to be, in order to make your comments, ask your questions, share your experience as a male?

If there is a group of male people who really urgently want to talk about the menopause or better understand their wives or a hundred other reasons important to male people about the menopause then perhaps they need a group for that. And perhaps which male people would not attend a women's menopause group because of their concerns about insensitivity to and inhibiting/excluding the people it was created for, but would come to a male group?

When you have stretched your brief to tick lots of lovely boxes and have started to actively exclude and discourage your core clientele and the reason for setting up in the first place? That is not an inclusion success. That's a #fail