Is it easy to spot a misogynist?

[upthefrogs]

I posted a thread yesterday about somebody who I believe has outed himself as a misogynist. That thread got pulled as it was too close to the bone perhaps. But this got me thinking. That person claims that nobody who meets him would think he was a misogynist. Thing is, I did. I think it’s sometimes quite easy to spot the worst misogynists, they give themselves away in the way they treat you. Not always, of course, as sometimes this is subtle. But often. Mentioning no names because this thread is not about any individual, what do you think?

I work with a self described feminist man. He is possibly the most misogynistic person I know.
He constantly calls me a girl or comments on my youth (I'm in my mod thirties and he's early forties) He stands over me when I teach and always makes me sit down when I am in his class (I'm not pregnant, it's a power play). He spends most of his time he is supposed to be out of the classroom telling the children they should behave for me (I'm perfectly capable of saying this myself, but he wastes 20 minutes of his own time doing this every time as he clearly thinks I'm incapable.)
I teach all the children from very small but seem to have the behaviour problems all at once when they reach his yeargroup. Coincidence?

The tricky bit is spotting one who isn't.

I'm sorry but I think misogyny is so deeply soaked into the fabric and bones of our society that a real active misogynist tends often to fade well into the background.

One of the reasons it can be hard to spot a future abuser - they play very well to many of our cultural tropes and expectations. Charming romantic seducers etc.

A family member's ipse dixit is, I'm as much of a feminist as I can be without actually being a woman - he really isn't and never has been. And it's all the worse because he declaims it and is adored for it.

To be fair, the same is true of almost every man I know who says something similar. However, like my family member, they tend to be acclaimed for this and even when there are known instances of dubious behaviour they're given a pass for it because otherwise they're such a fabulous and glamorous #ally whose charm and admiration acts as a shield.

And women's misogyny to our own sex is a powerful and destructive source of reputational harm and ostracism.

Hmm yes @ArabellaScott I guess you’re right. It’s ubiquitous.

Rather, how do you spot one who isn't one? It's a scourge on humanity.

I’ve had the misfortune to come across several. Here are some common features:

Being rude about their own mothers
Don’t have a good relationship with own mothers
Very nasty about ex partners, often citing “madness” 🧐
Pass comment on the appearance of women around them - as if they think women are there just to be easy on their eye
Demonstrate disgust if they consider a woman overweight or unattractive
Believe that the #metoo movement is a load of nonsense / minimise violence against women
I once heard a man sneer, about a woman being raped: you’d be so lucky

Plenty more, sadly.

Often the men who go on and on about how feminist they are as if you then owe them. It's like I wouldn't go on and on about not being racist. ;)

Jokes pretty easily out them. The way they greet you, look at you when address you and the kind of questions they ask.

Doubting stories of violence/victimisation.

Homophobia tends to go hand in hand. And yes comments about how women look etc

@BiscuitLover09876

Often the men who go on and on about how feminist they are as if you then owe them. It's like I wouldn't go on and on about not being racist. ;)

Jokes pretty easily out them. The way they greet you, look at you when address you and the kind of questions they ask.

Yes! Aforementioned man does 'stand offs' with me because he won't go through a door I'm holding.

All of the above and I'll add to that list being quite indifferent to other mens misogyny. Bloke culture.

I know one man who I'd say is truly a feminist.

I know a lot who claim to not be misogynist but they reveal themselves very quickly. Largely because they assume the difference in gendered expectations is based on natural law rather than stereotypes - I've had so many arguments with men around this one!

My exh was a misogynist. He genuinely believed that real women didn't drink beer, and were docile, compliant and always happy etc. His expectations of me as a woman and my failure to keep to them was the main factor in our marriage breaking down.

He had therapy afterwards to deal with the abuse he'd suffered at hands (abuse = me being the woman I was and not the woman he thought I should be) and ended up apologising me me the line because the therapist helped h see that it was his expectations that were wrong and not me.

I almost got one man to almost 'get it' by asking if the success of half the population should be dependent on whether the other half want to fuck them or not. He got close to getting it until he emerged that his opening gambit was that I'd be a stripper/grid girl/make money from onlyfans if I could... and was, therefore, only pissed off that i wasnt either sexy or able to exploit men. Ergo, women are the problem not me 🤦🏻‍♀️

He also referred to himself as an incel despite having a very loving girlfriend at the time. I was confused by that until I realised he meant he had no choice but to date women like her because the ones he really wanted weren't interested. He also thought young, slim sexy women were shallow because they would only date much older men if they were tall, good looking akd had big wallets. Totally unable to see the irony there.

I once heard a man sneer, about a woman being raped: you’d be so lucky

I've heard similar.

Everyone who has a strong bias or agenda will out themselves eventually.

Oh andntheyre always the victims because, apparently, the world is full of women who shout at men who reach things off high shelves for us or open doors for us etc. I have never heard a woman should at a man for being genuinely helpful.

I have got cross at a man who 'helped' me reverse into a parking space when a) I didn't need it and b) bear an additional hazard in the process.

Men who are 'just being friendly' when they attempt to engage strangers in innocent conversation and se no problem with the fact the strangers are always women half their age and never men/women their own age.

See the fact that these women respond politely as affirmation their input was welcomed. Can't see that women find it intimidating whenever men do this and so respond politely in order to both avoid trouble and get rid of them as quickly as possible.

When asked if these women ever invite them to join them, seem unfazed by the fact they don't or identify them as shallow because said man just isn't tall or good looking or rich enough looking for them 🤦🏻‍♀️

And women's misogyny to our own sex is a powerful and destructive source of reputational harm and ostracism.

I had a friend who was a senior manager in the NHS. The way she spoke about female colleagues, especially those working in admin, was appalling. Yet she experiencedisogyny herself. She was regularly on the receiving end of complaints about the lack of warmth and fluffiness in her management style. She recognised that her male peers were often a lot harsher than her but were never compained about and felt it was unfair but felt it was because she went against her sex's natural predisposition for being warm and fluffy rather than that the wrong and fluffy expectation was sexist.

Also 🤦🏻‍♀️

^Naaaaah

The tricky bit is spotting one who isn't^

This!

I can't abide the misogynists who pretend to be feminists.

There's a man I know who joined a feminist group in London a few years ago. Caused division within the group as some said he should not be there and others thought it was a great thing. He used to talk about how he was all about empowering women () and what a feminist he was. He also said that he hadn't found a woman who was on his intellectual wavelength. No fucking clue.

Homophobia tends to go hand in hand

With a certain kind of misogynist, yes, but there are other kinds too. The fact they might not be as obvious makes them harder to spot because we can assume they’re not and miss subtle signs.

One of the most misogynistic men I know is gay. He positively seethes with misogyny. The extent of it and the bile he comes out with is shocking. He resents women so much it’s unreal. What fooled me is that he has female friends. I wrongly assumed that a man with women as friends was ‘safe’ but I now know the reason he has women as friends is so he can manipulate and use them. He sees us as inferior, silly and gullible. He’s an absolute snake and the depths of his hatred of women still feels like a punch to the gut.

So - no, we can’t always spot them and sometimes they hide in plain sight, feigning progressiveness and kindness while hating us.

Oh, you can tell pretty much straight away when you meet one; they talk over you.

Yes, i feel i can tell instantly.
I can also tell a covert scapegoating narcissist easily too and my slight wariness around them triggers them :-/

He also said that he hadn't found a woman who was on his intellectual wavelength

He was possibly correct about that but not for the self-aggrandising beliefs that probably underpinned that view for him.

And any man who announces he's a feminist is open to being asked how that impacts on his day to day life. If he is reluctant to answer or can't evidence his claim, he's not a feminist.

If he is, you'll probably learn a lot from him, and he from you.

@breathandfocus i used to work with a man like that. He was the first to conplain if he perceived somebody to have made a homophobic remark. Yet he called women "bints". I pointed this out to him and he hated on me from then on. I was a middle aged single mother and yet the very ordinary men in the office were more at ease to chat to me than to him. I felt like he hated that men liked women, and was conflicted with hate, bitterness and confusion if a man chatted to a woman who was no use to him. He was a horribly toxic misogynist.

@Nonmaquillee

I’ve had the misfortune to come across several. Here are some common features:

Being rude about their own mothers
Don’t have a good relationship with own mothers
Very nasty about ex partners, often citing “madness” 🧐
Pass comment on the appearance of women around them - as if they think women are there just to be easy on their eye
Demonstrate disgust if they consider a woman overweight or unattractive
Believe that the #metoo movement is a load of nonsense / minimise violence against women
I once heard a man sneer, about a woman being raped: you’d be so lucky

Plenty more, sadly.

This. I think it may have been the comedian Joan Rivers who said, "Ugly women understand more about men than beautiful ones". I may be paraphrasing slightly, but this was the gist. Any man who thinks that the raison detre (sp) of women is to look good for the menz. Who apply no such rule to themselves, of course.