Is it easy to spot a misogynist?

[upthefrogs]

I posted a thread yesterday about somebody who I believe has outed himself as a misogynist. That thread got pulled as it was too close to the bone perhaps. But this got me thinking. That person claims that nobody who meets him would think he was a misogynist. Thing is, I did. I think it’s sometimes quite easy to spot the worst misogynists, they give themselves away in the way they treat you. Not always, of course, as sometimes this is subtle. But often. Mentioning no names because this thread is not about any individual, what do you think?

This is interesting. I haven't met many men who would claim to be feminists, BUT the men I have worked with in the public sector who are the most into D&I and "inclusivity" have been the same ones who talk over me, steal my ideas and promote the young men or women they fancy. DP rolls his eyes when I "go on" about feminism, and has no clue about the gender debate, but he NEVER comments on women's appearance, or uses nasty language about women. I got a bit of grey over lockdown and was stressing-he said, no keep it, it looks cool! So he might not be "aware" but I trust him more than most men. Which isn't saying much!

Any man claiming to be a feminist is a misogynist. Men who provide practical support to women who are active feminists are not misogynists.

Just as it's very difficult for white people raised in Great Britain to not have some degree of ingrained racism in them, it's very difficult for men raised in the patriarchy to not have some degrees of misogyny ingrained in them.

I differentiate between sexism and misogyny.
I think there is a racism and a sexism in us all.
Misogyny is darker. I don't think this is in us all.

@irresistibleoverwhelm
I work in a very male-dominated workplace and I've only met a handful of men who don't reveal some kind of misogyny or unthinking sexist assumptions at some point

I wouldn't say the lefty "woke" ones are worse tbh; but they're just often hiding it better under a slightly different set of sexist assumptions. I came to feel though like I'd prefer them just to be ghastly sexist old goats - then you already know what's coming

This. I worked in a uniformed male dominated occupation in the 70's and 80's. Horribly misogynist, but give me an obvious one over a wolf in sheep's clothing anytime.They are doing us all a favour, and saving time. Wolves in Woke clothing just take longer to spot.

All men are misogynistic in one way or another, every single one of them.

I don't bother with men apart from male family members occasionally. I'm a lesbian so it's been easy to not have them much in my life. Men expect me to play a nurturing role and that deeply bores me and pisses me off. I find men boring because of their expectations of me as a woman and because of their lack of awareness at how privileged they are. Women rock in comparison. I love love love the company of my women friends. I think I've got barriers up against men after long years of being at best disappointed by them and at worst criminally abused by them. I'm done with them.

I'm deeply untrusting of woke men.

I was married to a massive misogynist but it took about 15 years to see it. He was an activist, feminist, with lots of female friends including exes. He is lauded for his great activism to women. And since we have split up is very clever and careful about how talks/writes about me. He always starts with a mea culpa about how he really did put me through some terrible things and make life very tough for me, followed by a 'but................' And then goes into how unreasonable I am now and am not supportive of his mental health challenges. And no doubt, in private he also alludes to my TERFiness as further proof of his righteousness and that I'm a bad person really.

It fools a lot of people. People feel so sorry for him and I'm the unreasonable one because he is owing his bad behaviour and I refuse to get over it. The reality is that he is an extremely violent addict who I think would very likely have killed me by now if we were still together. I have very, very firm boundaries up in regards to DS and I doubt very much at this point that XH's behaviour will ever warrant me changing those.

I very, very much hope that I am raising my DS to be an anti-misogynist/genuine feminist. He is still very young but I have found that the most genuinely thoughtful, forward thinking men I have know in life have all been raised by single mothers, often in spite of shitty dads. I think that seeing their mothers take on all roles while their father is a hinderance she has to rise above, makes these young men more truly appreciative of women and aware that we don't actually need men, so they need to bring something fucking real to the table if they want to maintain a relationship/marriage. But hopefully that's not my naivety, and blind hope showing through.

@IfNot

This is interesting. I haven't met many men who would claim to be feminists, BUT the men I have worked with in the public sector who are the most into D&I and "inclusivity" have been the same ones who talk over me, steal my ideas and promote the young men or women they fancy. DP rolls his eyes when I "go on" about feminism, and has no clue about the gender debate, but he NEVER comments on women's appearance, or uses nasty language about women. I got a bit of grey over lockdown and was stressing-he said, no keep it, it looks cool! So he might not be "aware" but I trust him more than most men. Which isn't saying much!

Isn't it verboten for men to be feminists? One used to read about some historical figure ' he was a staunch feminist '. But surely it's a sort of faux pas nowadays. At least since the 80s the preferred term is 'ally'?

@joystir59

I don't bother with men apart from male family members occasionally. I'm a lesbian so it's been easy to not have them much in my life. Men expect me to play a nurturing role and that deeply bores me and pisses me off. I find men boring because of their expectations of me as a woman and because of their lack of awareness at how privileged they are. Women rock in comparison. I love love love the company of my women friends. I think I've got barriers up against men after long years of being at best disappointed by them and at worst criminally abused by them. I'm done with them.

This is a genuine question, I'm not trying to be goadey and obviously not everyone wants to be a mother. But I've read a lot recently about women eliminating men from their lives. Political lesbianism and bisexual women choosing to lean more into their attraction to women because realistically being with men is at best utterly draining. As a single mother, with a lot of single mother friends, all of us with fucking awful exes. I find that a lot of us are choosing to lean on each other and avoid having men very involved in our lives.

And as great as that is, most of us, me included, have sons. So how is it possible to square leading a very female centric life if you also want children. Because statistically pretty much half of our children will be boys. And as much as we will determine to raise them as feminists, most of the feminist men I know are, like most of us have found, wolves in sheep's clothing.

I have a son, he's only young, but I see him picking up ideas about toxic masculinity already. I have an ongoing argument with my DH as he is on a whatsapp group with his mates who often share horrible sexist and pornographic 'memes' (I think that's what they're called). I have repeatedly asked him to call them out on it, tell them to stop, and I explain that although it might seem harmless 'fun' this backdrop of objectification and degradation is multiplied a million times and is the context within which our own daughter and all other young women are growing up. He says he agrees but he will not tell them to stop or just take himself off the group. I find it so utterly gutless, it's devastating and every time we talk about it, it causes a distressing argument - good way to shut me down. Not sure what my point is here other than to say that in answer to my own question(!), there is more 'obvious' misogyny (and I continue to be shocked as the subject of my previous thread blocks reasonable people and refuses to debate) and then the drip drip kind which is the landscape to our lives. However, I do have even more respect for women during the 60s and 70s and after that who must have fought such hard battles at home and at work and who paved our way.

There was a piece on Unherd recently (The Problem with male Feminists suggesting that self-declared male feminists tended to be more sexist.

It also mentioned a Stanford study showing that "people who loudly proclaim anti-racist views are often, in practice, more racist than average". That chimes with my personal experience, but I haven't been able to track down that study??

I can't abide the misogynists who pretend to be feminists.

I am suspicious of all men who aren't satisfied with calling themselves allies, for this reason. So many of these male feminists are nothing of the sort. I don't believe it's appropriate for male people to have any power within women's rights groups, because they take over.

Men really don't have to be straight to be misogynistic.

@BaronMunchausen

There was a piece on Unherd recently (The Problem with male Feminists suggesting that self-declared male feminists tended to be more sexist.

It also mentioned a Stanford study showing that "people who loudly proclaim anti-racist views are often, in practice, more racist than average". That chimes with my personal experience, but I haven't been able to track down that study??

I could be wrong - I think it's the paper summarised here:

www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/inventing-racist-roads-not-taken-licensing-effects-immoral

Which is: Effron, D. A., Miller, D. T., & Monin, B. (2012). Inventing racist roads not taken: The licensing effect of immoral counterfactual behaviors. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 103(6), 916–932. doi.org/10.1037/a0030008

And women's misogyny to our own sex is a powerful and destructive source of reputational harm and ostracism.
This^

I'd like to think many men want to do the right thing and make the right choices (I accept that many don't want this, but some do).
Without doubt they'll make mistakes.

In anybody's heart of hearts, they either consider others their equal, or they don't, regardless of race, sex, age, religion etc.

I believe children are born without prejudice. We as adults slowly corrupt that innocence. In the case of sexism, it isn't always conscious, but it happens all the same. If we take strides to try and prevent that corruption, others outnumber us and unduly influence children anyway.

There is so much that the human race is missing out on as a result of prejudice, including sexism. We aren't all the same as men, or as women, let alone acknowledging any differences between sexes. Our differences ought to be embraced and celebrated, not used as lines of division.

It feels impossible to change things though. Maybe it isn't impossible, but it feels it.
All men aren't bastards. We're messed up by the machine that is patriarchy and become part of the perpetuation. Grinding it to a halt is no easy task.

Anyone, woman, man or child, who operates out of a core and unshakeable conviction that "women are people, too" is a feminist in my book. It's actions that count.

I don't believe it's appropriate for male people to have any power within women's rights groups, because they take over.

I will go so far as to say that this happens even if the man is actively resisting it because inbuilt deference and entitlement are so ingrained that there will be a shift in the dynamic no matter how hard people are resisting it. And wasting energy trying to do that, even if people were to succeed, has shifted the group dynamic by virtue of having to do this.

It is going to take women and men - or more accurate, enough good people to work together to change things.
It might take centuries, and good people will make plenty of mistakes too.

For there to come a time when prejudice no longer exists, it will need the combined efforts of everybody. If a white person cannot campaign with a black person, then racism isn't gone. If a man cannot campaign with a woman, then sexism isn't gone.

Effron, D. A., Miller, D. T., & Monin, B. (2012). Inventing racist roads not taken: The licensing effect of immoral counterfactual behaviors. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 103(6), 916–932. doi.org/10.1037/a0030008

Many thanks for that, it seems to be the one referenced. I did look, but couldn't trace it from the Times link given on Unherd.

@joystir59

Any man claiming to be a feminist is a misogynist. Men who provide practical support to women who are active feminists are not misogynists.

Over 20 years ago a chap I was chatting with said to me “scratch a male feminist and you’ll find a misogynist”.

I think about that a lot.

In my old place of work there was a very active man as an ally in our women's network, he even centred himself on IWD by writing an article about how to be an amazing ally like him which was chosen to be the one and only article on the intranet about IWD. No one seemed to bat an eyelid at the appalling misogyny and the me me me attitude when we had loads of incredible women in our organisation.

@HeyDugeesCakeBadge

In my old place of work there was a very active man as an ally in our women's network, he even centred himself on IWD by writing an article about how to be an amazing ally like him which was chosen to be the one and only article on the intranet about IWD. No one seemed to bat an eyelid at the appalling misogyny and the me me me attitude when we had loads of incredible women in our organisation.

Do you think they chose it because it was coming from a man, and the company thought that might encourage other men to be more aware?

i.e. well intentioned, just not well considered?