Is it easy to spot a misogynist?

[upthefrogs]

I posted a thread yesterday about somebody who I believe has outed himself as a misogynist. That thread got pulled as it was too close to the bone perhaps. But this got me thinking. That person claims that nobody who meets him would think he was a misogynist. Thing is, I did. I think it’s sometimes quite easy to spot the worst misogynists, they give themselves away in the way they treat you. Not always, of course, as sometimes this is subtle. But often. Mentioning no names because this thread is not about any individual, what do you think?

My dad is a misogynist though he would never identify as such. Things like the way he talks about Nicola Sturgeon (he is Scottish and lives in Scotland) - there’s a real bile of hatred shining through compared to when he talks about male politicians he doesn’t like.

Also men who find any excuse to call women bitches, sluts etc ie when annoyed by a woman driver etc.

This. I think it may have been the comedian Joan Rivers who said, "Ugly women understand more about men than beautiful ones". I may be paraphrasing slightly, but this was the gist. Any man who thinks that the raison detre (sp) of women is to look good for the menz. Who apply no such rule to themselves, of course

Very much so. Totally agree with that. And you can't even explain it to these men because, well, ugly women don't count...

I've only really understood feminism/mysogeny/men as I've turned 48/49 and my looks have faded. My god have my eyes been opened.

Yeh, same, i used to be able to join in the chat st work but it turns out, many men dont hear words that come out of an older woman's mouth, never mind find your jokes funny. I am quick witted, i know iam. But quick wit is apparently rendered slow white noise when acconpanied by an older face!

I know plenty of women who hold mysogenistic views. However, they can't rape us, are unlikely to murder us or assault us, rarely use prostitutes, are far less likely to send round porn images of women being abused on WhatsApp groups and hold far fewer ceo/md/senior/powerful positions and are therefore statistically less able to fuck women over with promotions, salaries etc.

IME yes it is.

It's often (though sometimes) not what they say but how they behave.

They generally "out themselves" without even realising it.

Sometimes it's quite subtle, for example in a long email thread with multiple participants, noticing the polite vs curt responses depending on the sex of the person they respond to.

Speaking over women/interrupting them in meetings but never the men present regardless of seniority.

In an interview going to great pains to make eye contact with the men present but not the (sole) woman there until they finally clock that she's actually the most senior person in the room and the one who will make the call on him getting the job.

Always asking the woman in the meeting to take notes because she's good at it (yep well she's had a lot of practice).

Always choosing a woman to organise any work socials/parties/client entertainment.

Requesting client entertainment that's centred around the hobbies/interests of the men attending at the expense of the women who should actually also be there (because for example they don't get to play golf one night after work a week and all day Sunday because they are looking after their kids)

And so on and so on. I could write millions of examples and as you might have guessed the above are all true snapshots of my experiences (though different men in each case).

Yet all these men would never think of themselves as being misogynistic.

And giving every neutral thing a woman does a negative interpretation while giving every neutral thing a man does a positive interpretation

@ItPearl

And giving every neutral thing a woman does a negative interpretation while giving every neutral thing a man does a positive interpretation

Yes I've seen that in action on many occasions.

Plus the parallel train of though that a woman's words contain a secret underlying agenda whilst a man always says what he means.

Hence one is untrustworthy whilst the other is not.

Yes it’s very easy to spot them. Most mysoginists give themselves away within minutes of meeting them.

The worse ones though, are the ones who give the appearance that they genuinely believe they are “a good person”. They’re usually self declared feminists.

See the fact that these women respond politely as affirmation their input was welcomed. Can't see that women find it intimidating whenever men do this and so respond politely in order to both avoid trouble and get rid of them as quickly as possible

I’m in a Wild Swimming Facebook group and there are absolutely loads of these ^ type of men in there. A bloke posted recently about “etiquette” on finding a very secluded swimming spot and finding a woman swimming in there on her own. He wanted to swim at that particular spot too and was at great pains to point out how he’d hate to make her feel uncomfortable, so he’d go to great lengths to chat to her, put her at ease, give off “signals” to make sure she knew he was one of the “good ones”. She got out abs left within minutes of him getting in and he would simply not accept that probably the best and only way to really make her feel comfortable would have been to walk on another 10 minutes or so and find another spot to swim instead.

One of the amazing things about this - because misogyny is so ubiquitous - is how some people don’t see it. I mentioned in a previous post that I do a bit of public speaking around diversity and (my preference) equality, often relating to sex/gender. Even before the trans thing really got going I was regularly asked during events how we can keep men on board. I would always say that I don’t give a shit. Well, not quite in those words! But that I didn’t think the fight for equality was advanced by constantly tiptoeing around the potentially hurt feelings of men, which is itself an expression of their power and control. It’s fascinating that women then would repeat this concern and now we are seeing it amplified in relation to trans rights. The socialisation to centre men and their feelings is STRONG.

I suspect that sometimes misogyny can be difficult to spot because we are so used to it being part of our daily lives.

@upthefrogs

One of the amazing things about this - because misogyny is so ubiquitous - is how some people don’t see it. I mentioned in a previous post that I do a bit of public speaking around diversity and (my preference) equality, often relating to sex/gender. Even before the trans thing really got going I was regularly asked during events how we can keep men on board. I would always say that I don’t give a shit. Well, not quite in those words! But that I didn’t think the fight for equality was advanced by constantly tiptoeing around the potentially hurt feelings of men, which is itself an expression of their power and control. It’s fascinating that women then would repeat this concern and now we are seeing it amplified in relation to trans rights. The socialisation to centre men and their feelings is STRONG.

I agree.

One thing occurred to me a while ago was the realisation that the feminists I most admired had an absolutely irreverent attitude to men.

I don't mean they hated men, but rather refuse to modify their thinking for great of offence.

*the feminists I most admired had an absolutely irreverent attitude to men.

I don't mean they hated men, but rather refuse to modify their thinking for great of offence.*

So true! It was a great eye-opener for me when I read statements in response to whataboutery here on MN like "I'm not talking about men. I'm talking about women." No need to justify women's needs, rights or even preferences. No need to split our attention when discussing or accessing them. Women can think about women without reference or deference to men!

Apologies for the typo - I meant fear of offence

I have not been good at identifying this historically outside of work. In work however, as a civil servant, it is at such a high level, that it is inescapable.

On one occasion at work when I was new, two men standing at my desk, looking down on me frequently and disturbing me, were having a loud disagreement about a legal matter for over an hour, one was my manager.

I had the bare faced temerity to interject the actual answer, with reference and ask that they move their conversation elsewhere. The look of horror on their faces was profound, shock that a woman had spoken up was painfully evident in their open mouthed, up down, gobsmacked stare.

Unlike my usual crawling away embarassed, I acknowledged that they were indeed accustomed to women only being given typist or admin roles, however, nowadays they could be qualified and everything! Rude I know, but their behaviour did improve slightly thereafter. (Still manager got gropey at parties etc)

The higher manager also advised me that whilst I was clearly highly competent at my job, my personality just didn't fit in to how women should behave in the office. I treated the admin staff and typists too well and this was not to be encouraged (aka the women). He suggested I leave and focus on having a family.

I’m also suspicious of a man telling you he is a feminist without it being part of the conversation. It’s like saying ‘I’m a nice guy,’ it immediately assures me that you’re not.

I would also say how he speaks about ex partners, so many guys with kids seem to going about the mental ex, how she stopped him seeing the kids, how she ruined their relationship - I always wonder hmm what’s the other side of the story here?

Or how he speaks about current partner. Mentioning she's overweight or not his idea of attractive is a red flag.

That thing of not talking about men when talking about women is so important. I also think you can judge men by how they treat women (outside their family) who they don’t want to have sex with.

@upthefrogs

That thing of not talking about men when talking about women is so important. I also think you can judge men by how they treat women (outside their family) who they don’t want to have sex with.

👏

Well in the civil service they should be used to women in high grades

@Naaaaah

The tricky bit is spotting one who isn't.

^^This

I work in a very male-dominated workplace and I've only met a handful of men who don't reveal some kind of misogyny or unthinking sexist assumptions at some point.

I wouldn't say the lefty "woke" ones are worse tbh; but they're just often hiding it better under a slightly different set of sexist assumptions. I came to feel though like I'd prefer them just to be ghastly sexist old goats - then you already know what's coming.

I think there is sexism in us all (men). It's often not conscious. Sometimes if we are lucky, we can think about it and recognise choices, assumptions, actions we've made and realise the sexism. Sometimes we don't - and that's a lifelong learning curve. If man thinks this way about sexism (trying to be aware if it, I think he'll also be the same about all other forms of prejudice). How could you try to eradicate sexism in your thinking, but not want to do the same with racism, or ageism etc?).

Misogyny is darker, less ignorant than sexism - far more deliberate. I don't know where it comes from, but it's more then evident there is plenty of it.

To actively hate must be a hard thing to hide, and I suspect misogyny is only one of the ill-feelings inside such a person. I think it will show in all but the most cunning of men. If you can hate a woman, you can hate other things too. I think it'll show. Hatred strives to reveal itself.

@ItPearl

Well in the civil service they should be used to women in high grades

In my department, they still appear to be token box ticking.

Many of those promoted are erm "with" The higher grade married men. Urgh

I think it will show in all but the most cunning of men.

How?

Psychopathy is common. Narcissism is common. The whole 'dark triad' of personality traits (I would say correlates with misogyny and hatred) is not an uncommon thing, and it's certainly not necessarily easy to spot.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

I think people who hate do precisely that - hate. It shows in many ways, from anger issues, phraseology, contempt etc. Not only towards woman, but in other areas too. Angry men get angry. Hateful men, say and do hateful things.

There are some, yes, who will hide it exceptionally well, but most won't. Would you necessarily spot it in a business meeting at work? you might, but most would hide it long enough. Would you spot it in a relationship, or a close working environment, yes I think most would (and do).