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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

999 replies

CuriousPanda · 13/07/2021 21:07

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

OP posts:
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EarthSight · 13/07/2021 23:14

It's not 'simply called' sex-based. They are sex based.

Yes, we would rather there not be segregation. Unfortunately, sometimes it's necessary. In facilities where women are extra vulnerable - sleeping, sick, naked, running away from an abuser or in therapy, they are necessary.

imposing the labels of "man" and "woman" on people against their will' - they are not imposed. Gravity isn't imposed on anyone, it simply is. There is male & female for the purposes of reproduction which works in binary in human beings and most animals. This binary is observed not just at birth - even before birth we can tell if a baby is male or female.

If you don't like this, perhaps you need to have a go at Mother Nature, God, or some other entity.

You may think it's limiting to view humans in this way, but it's fact. Despite it's simplicity, there is enormous range and freedom to acknowledging people in this way. There is biology....and the rest is personality which is incredibly varied.

But apparently people can't just be free to use masculine, feminine, or gender neutral labels and pronouns for some reason

There is a range of opinions on this. Not everyone opposes pronouns, but most here do resist pronouns being imposed onto us or by persistently encouraging people to introduce themselves with pronouns. Many people think they are freeing themselves by using gender pronouns, but actually, all is serves is to reinforce and acknowledge often regressive and limiting 1950s stereotypes of what men & women are meant to be like. Women in particular have suffered from the view that women are inherently interested in dressing-up, high-heels and babies because it goes along with other things which are particularly unpleasant, such as women are dim, air-headed, and not to be taken seriously. THAT, is where we think we're all going back to with this.

Many people are are gender neutral most of the time, until something comes along to remind them of their biological sex. Lets take you and me for example. When I lift my hand to put the kettle on - I grab the handle, pour myself a cup of tea and look out of the window as the tea bag stews. Do you think that in that moment I am aware that I am 'a woman'? No. Do I feel 'feminine'. No. Do I feel 'masculine'? No. Every day life is filled with completely mundane moments where we are unaware of how we feel, or how we feel has no label on it. The way I make myself a drink is likely to feel exactly the same way you feel when you make a drink.

When I open the door, I don't feel 'feminine'. When I go down the stairs, I don't feel 'feminine'. These moments don't feel gendered. Most of my day is filled with ungendered moments, yet if I were to buy into the idea that I have to use pronouns, it would signify that I somehow feel 'feminine' most of the time. I'm certainly a woman, but I don't feel or I'm not aware of said feminity.

We don't see 'male' (man) 'female' (woman) as labels that have been imposed upon us. They are simply referring to our biological sex. We're ok with that because biology is important. It has a big influence on our lives. It very much informs the discrimination we face as women - men abuse, assault, and kill women not because of what those women feel they are on the inside or by have a feminine soul. An abuser will abuse based on biology - we are physically weaker than men, as a whole, and some unpleasant men fully take advantage of this. When a predatory man stalks a woman down a dark lane, he gives zero fucks about what she feels like on the inside, what her pronouns are or what her identity is - what he wants is her female body and the feeling of power over her. When some men start getting shouty, pointing their finger in a woman's face, towering over her, this is behaviour they simply wouldn't display to another man, especially a bigger man. They do this with women because they know it's unlikely they'll get a punch from her, and if they do, it's not going to hurt the same way as if they were to physically intimidate a man.

One can identify as we wish to ourselves, but we cannot identify ourselves out of the way that men will see us, which is very much biology based, not matter what they claim on Twitter.

I can understand the attraction of the non-binary. I think many people identify as non-binary because society has invested so much into gender. Young women in particular must understandably look at what they think means 'woman' and it probably feels totally alien to them - the pink, the beauty vloggers, the high heels, even the mannerisms that are expected, such as not sitting in a relaxed manner and always sitting with your legs crossed or closed. Then they look at what they think men are like and feel, well no, I'm not a 'lad' either. If you don't feel able to identify with gender stereotypes, you are in very good company here. A lot of women on this forum are like that I would say. How many non-binary people do you know in real life, as opposed to non-binary people? Would you surprise you to know that most people are non-binary, by your own definitions? They neither fully identity with male nor female gender stereotypes. The type of women you will find on this forum in particular are exactly the type of women you would have been friends with when they were young. NO! You might think. NEVER! But I doubt that. In fact, I'd put money on the fact that you probably have a lot in common with many women here, whatever your identity is.

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sharksarecool · 13/07/2021 23:15

"I mean @sharksarecool's picture says it all really, doesn't it!!!

The thing is when you look at that diagram and you are saying that gender critical feminists only note the difference in genitals, and nothing else at all - not aggression etc

Then isn't it bizarre that they so strongly wish to retain the differences in access to spaces?"

The testicles produce testosterone which makes men stronger on average than women. There might be some outliers, but generally speaking most men are stronger than most women. And that's the reason for all the demands: separate changing rooms, separate prisons, separate sports teams. Nothing to do with personality or other characteristics, everything to do with strength."


Anyone can be aggressive: man, woman, child. Lots of toddlers can be full of aggression, lashing out to try and hurt their mother. That doesn't matter too much because toddlers are small so they're no threat. But if an adult male is full of aggression, they are dangerous. So we really really don't want to be locked in prisons with them.

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Wildgarlicpesto · 13/07/2021 23:16

I think the diagram had a very clear point - that genitals hanging between legs are the only difference between men and women .

Maybe @sharksarecool would like to clarify?

It definitely isn't a formal diagnostic tool. If you want one of those I've linked a few quizzes upthread.

If you want to know your sex, it's on your birth certificate.

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GromblesofGrimbledon · 13/07/2021 23:20

@Shedbuilder

The words "man" and "woman" are as mundane and factual as the words "tall", "short", "blonde", "brown-eyed".

Er, no. For years people would argue whether I was blonde or had light brown hair. The way it looked depended on peoples' subjective ideas of what blonde was. I'm of average height but short when compared to taller women and tall when compared to shorter women. Are my brown eyes hazel or chocolate?

Female and male are much more clear-cut and unambiguous than your examples.


This is a trifling point. They can argue all they like. My point is these genetic markers are encoded in your DNA and that such markers are facts of life.

TRAs can quibble about the subjectivity of "man" ness and "woman" ness for forever and a day. But these are biological realities.

They are free to play about with the language and how they present (just as you can dye your blonde hair blue) but that's all it is- playing around.

As long as they're not compelling anyone's speech or insisting on legislation that mangles the meaning of language then they can dress as they please, do whatever they want to their appearance and just crack on with it.

I say it's mundane because it is. Too much desire to be seen as special and demand special treatment. It's bloody tedious.
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minipie · 13/07/2021 23:23

For a few specific purposes, we need to know which biological sex a person is.

These are some examples (appreciate some of these are controversial):

  • Medical purposes, where female and male bodies require different treatment
  • Segregation of sports where physical size, strength and greater levels of male hormones are an advantage (ie most of them)
  • Segregation of spaces such as refuges and prisons where physical size strength and possession of a penis makes you a physical threat, or perceived as such
  • Segregation of spaces where we wish to prevent sexual activity that may lead to pregnancy, such as girls and boys dorms, and prisons
  • Sexuality - most people tend to be attracted to one biological sex or the other and so for example in OLD will want to advertise to one sex or the other


The words woman and man are long established words to indicate which biological sex someone is, for these circumstances.

I agree that outside these circumstances, we can manage perfectly well (and may be better off in many ways) without knowing if someone is a woman or a man. Society at present divides people up far too much according to their biological sex.

But that doesn’t mean we can jettison the words woman and man altogether - we need them for the circumstances when biology is important.
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GromblesofGrimbledon · 13/07/2021 23:26

beta.cp24.com/news/2021/7/13/1_5507641.html

This is why we need gender critical feminism. This is why we need to fight and fight and fight to retain the words "man" and "woman".

I am not conceding any ground to this utter nonsense.

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Wildgarlicpesto · 13/07/2021 23:28

Jeez I did one of the quizzes and I'm non binary gender fluid

I was advised to DM the author for a chat. I want to use the G word. All I said was yes to not liking the changes to my body at puberty and other normal stuff like not wanting to be treated as my "gender" all the time.

Fuck me. What a load of unnecessary gaslighting young people put themselves through with this shit show.

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Waitwhat23 · 13/07/2021 23:29

These threads are brilliant for sunlight. There's lots of lurkers who will be reading these threads and becoming aware of just how out of touch with reality the theories gender ideologists are espousing.

It is a fact that males commit the vast majority of violent crimes, no matter what gender they identify as. This is well established through evidence and statistics. It can't just be handwaved away. Women take precautions against (majority male attackers) when walking home by holding keys between their fingers for example so that they have some defence against that obvious strength and power imbalance

Women are subject to physical domestic abuse from their male partners in part because those male partners are stronger and bigger than them because of their sex. The differences in physical strength means that the male has the upper hand and the female cannot fight back in the same way.

These differences in physical strength, lung capacity etc are why there are separate sporting categories for males and females, as otherwise the likelihood of women winning is very slim - //www.boysvwomen.com. That is why there is currently such an outcry about Laurel Hubbard - it is so obviously unfair.

And the thing is women know all this - it's our lived experience. Which is why it is so illuminating to have posters insisting that sex is nothing more than the 'genitals hanging between your legs'.

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Wildgarlicpesto · 13/07/2021 23:32

'genitals hanging between your legs'.

My muff doesn't "hang." I'm offended.

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Waitwhat23 · 13/07/2021 23:34

To be clear, I'm quoting a previous poster.

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EyesOpening · 13/07/2021 23:34

suggestionsplease1

EyesOpening
But sharksarecool's diagram was incredibly clear that there is no difference at all apart genitalia! You know how Venn diagrams work right?

Blimey, I guess humans don’t have 2 legs either then because that wasn’t in there either
I think the diagram had a very clear point - that genitals hanging between legs are the only difference between men and women

Maybe sharksarecool would like to clarify?

I think it’s clear that the Venn diagram shows that if you had a person in front of you and the person was any of those things (and many more besides) in the intersection then that person could be either a man or a woman but the secondary sex characteristics would place them outside the intersection.
A pie chart might be more useful in showing how a trait might be more prevalent in one sex or the other but you would not be able to use that trait to determine which sex a particular person was, only how statistically more likely they would be (to be one sex or the other)

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Wildgarlicpesto · 13/07/2021 23:37

@Waitwhat23

To be clear, I'm quoting a previous poster.

To be clear, I'm not really offended.Grin
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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/07/2021 23:44

you insist on using masculine and feminine labels and pronouns on people who very much ​do not wish to be referred to that way​.

CuriousPanda, I call people men or women for the same reason I call them human beings. It’s just what we all are. I’m sorry it upsets you so much. Calling yourself something different doesn’t change reality.

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Blibbyblobby · 13/07/2021 23:51

Whatever label you put on them, people with female bodies have been subject to oppression that people with male bodies weren't, and that oppression while no longer legally supported is still baked into our culture and therefore continues to place the female bodied at a disadvantage.

I personally do not believe that male people are innately more sexually violent, socially domineering, or physically aggressive than females.

However the statistics show very clearly that here and now, whatever the root cause, that is how they behave.

So until such a time as our society stops socialising that behaviour into males (and stops socialising self-defeating life choices as desirable behaviour for females), we need to protect female people from male people.

It doesn't matter whether you believe sex is "really" meaningful or not. What matters is that while that cultural imbalance in power exists the demand that trans rights can only be met by the removal of single-sex classifications is damaging to female people.

Basically, if you want to remove any need for boundaries between male and female people, you don't just take the boundaries down and claim without them the need will also go away. You deal with the reasons why there are boundaries first, get to the point there is no longer a need and only then remove the boundaries.

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Barracker · 13/07/2021 23:54

Referencing people as male or female is as inoffensive as referencing people having heads.

OP would have us believe that possession of a head is not an observable fact, but an identity declaration, and any casual observer enacts linguistic violence by presuming that a head can be observed, when it must be identified only with permission of the head owner.

Material reality exists, and people don't need permission to observe it, even when it exists in the personhood of another.

If you choose to take an inoffensive and accurate word for a physical reality and insist it should now be an identity instead, expect others to reject your position.

The need to be honest about reality outranks the narcissism of pretending realities are now identities that people can choose.

If you're offended by someone noting your material sex, perhaps ask yourself what on earth you find offensive about that sex?

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Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 13/07/2021 23:55

Statistics prove being born male makes people inherently more dangerous and predatory. Whatever gender they decided suits them.

Jerry Brudos
Ed Gein
Reginald Arthurell
Hadden Clark
Beate Schmidt

All male, all trans women by todays definition, and the worst serial murders and rapists in modern history.

Come up with same list for females. You cant, it doesn't exist.

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Enough4me · 14/07/2021 00:11

I don't think the majority men see or feel it yet. They don't stand to lose rights, competitive sports, space or become more likely to be hurt. I think they assume it's ridiculous and won't go anywhere. I talk to my partner about it and, while he sees the unfairness of Laurel H, he doesn't understand the long term impact. Getting more men to understand why sex based labelling and rights are vital feels like a hard slog.

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PickAChew · 14/07/2021 00:36

In my late 20s, early 30d, I was pretty sturdy. I had no problem heaving a large chest of drawers up or down stairs, by myself, for example.

DH was (still is) your typical scrawny geek. Despite 5" difference in height, he weighed a lot less than me, at that point.


He could easily overpower me, if he wanted to.

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BreatheAndFocus · 14/07/2021 00:39

And this brings me back to the question in the OP. What is "gender critical" about strictly assigning these labels based on someone's genitals?

Because that’s SEX!!! GC people believe in sex - because it’s a fact. Women’s sex is why they are oppressed and gender is how they are oppressed. Gender is NOT the same as sex.

Sex is a relevant category for humans - and other animals. Humans recognised sex from the beginning. Recognising somebody’s membership of a category doesn’t dictate their behaviour. Your example of male’s committing most sexual offences is a fact. People counted the sex of the perpetrator, they didn’t say everyone who was Male had to commit sex offences or wanted to. That’s not a gender stereotype, it’s a fact, like the fact that men are generally stronger than women.

Non-binary people can have whatever pronouns they want, but they still have a Sex. Most people will try to use the pronouns the person has requested, but that doesn’t change or negate their sex. NB is not a sex. It’s a gender identity.

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InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 14/07/2021 02:35

We disagree with the OP and we identify as being correct.

We also identify as a pair of astronomical objects.

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NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 03:02

'For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.'

News to me!

Unless you are equating

Women fighting to be allowed into parliament, certain jobs, to not be property, to be able to play certain sports, ride bicycles... And over the world to be allowed outside the home without a chaperone.. etc

With things like communal changing, prisons and shared shower facilities?

I've heard this before.

It's a popular MRA argument. You got into our stuff. Now we get into yours. Ha!!!

According to your argument everything should be mixed sex.

I suggest you start writing to the charities, the UN etc who have initiatives to increase the provision of single sex facilities globally to mean girls drop out of school less, and to reduce sexual assault and rape.

This is just MN. A chat board.

You need to think bigger!

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NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 03:07

I also think OP is labouring under the impression that they are talking to some kind of strict religious types.

Again. If this bothers you. Bigger fish to fry on the enforced sex roles front.

You might want to start with tackling

The taleban
Isis
Saudi Arabia
The closed off religious groups around the world who are into this. The Mormons?
Iran
Etc etc

Talking to us won't help with your concerns about extreme and highly enforced sex roles. I agree with you by the way. It's a travesty resulting in massive harm all over the world.

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HeirloomTomato · 14/07/2021 03:10

I thought it was your crew who are into forcing everyone to announce their pronouns all the time everywhere they go? So instead of just being ‘Heirloom’ in a meeting with colleagues, now I have to be ‘Heirloom + gender signifier emphasizing my femaleness’. There is good data showing that women suffer discrimination and even abuse when their gender is made evident e.g. through a very feminine name, picture etc., especially online.

Why should I have to suffer even more sex-based discrimination than usual, possibly even attract abuse, just because I’m forced to announce my gender? I prefer to keep my sex identity low-profile, especially online. Pre-pronoun announcements, my sex was not always evident online or in spaces where I could be anonymous but the trans movement wants us all to have a gender and announce it and emphasize it all the time, even though it puts women at risk and disadvantages us.

Feminists would recognize the dangers that women face and support us to stay safe in ways that work for us, not dismiss our concerns in the name of pandering to a cause of the moment.

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NiceGerbil · 14/07/2021 03:19

Ah you're not on message.

If you don't have rigid expectations around dress, behaviour, preferences etc.

How can anyone clearly signal their gender?

There was a piece a while back with a trans person who was a goth saying that male goths wearing makeup etc made it really hard for them to signal their gender.

So to help them and others like them. Follow the rules.

You know the ones if you're female in England.

Maths is hard
Ooh sparkles
Be paranoid about your looks and seek approval constantly
Defer to men
Never drink a pint. Esp of real ale
Look after your man/kids/mum/ etc and enjoy every minute. Never complain. Make sandwiches
You know the stuff!

BeKind. Least you can do. You know you want to. You're gender is cis whether you agree with that or not.

Just relax and stop pretending to be something you're not. You'll be much happier!

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Delphinium20 · 14/07/2021 04:58

Strict "sex-based" categorization and segregation, i.e. insistence on calling people "men" and "women" strictly based on their physiology, and forcing them to use separate facilities according to that categorization

Yes! You got it! I agree with strict sex-based segregation and categories when needed. It's a rule that is applied to ALL humans, so it's as fair as fair can be.

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