How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

Don’t forget, as gender criticals we want to strictly enforce the segregation of the genders and the roles, and if we assign you as a woman, you must strictly obey the roles set out for you. Or rules. Or and rules. Or rolls. Because, words. And labels. Oh and we love Trump. Or something.

'The only one who is denying misogyny here is you. I've never denied that cis women face misogyny, whereas you deny the misogyny experienced by trans women.'

You believe that vagina people are only vulnerable to penis rape because they believe that they are weak. That if vagina people are as strong as penis people in general, and don't fight because they don't believe they can.

That is extreme misogyny.

When in war or a drive for ethnic cleansing etc is happening.

And there is a town village etc overwhelmed. Often the male people are killed. The female people are raped. Children. Gang raped in front of their family. That sort of stuff.

You think that is NOT based on sex?

Your posts are getting more grim by the minute.

gender identity is simply identifying with a particular set of terms, labels, and pronouns, that's it.

So how the fuck is it assigned at birth? You really talk a veritable load of codswallop.

Intriguing how the argument from TRAs changes and contradicts itself over and over, we've had:

TRAs: Born in the wrong body
TRA'S: We never said anyone was born in the wrong body

TRAs: Sex isn't real it's a construct
TRAs: We never said sex wasn't real

TRAs: Biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed
TRAs: We never said biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed we know humans can't change sex

TRA'S: Gender identity is innate.
TRA'S: We never said gender identity is innate, gender identity is unquantifiable, shifting, unexplainable and whatever anyone says it is.

TRAs: Sex role stereotypes determine gender
TRA's: We never said sex role stereotypes determine gender, gender is now apparently terms, labels and pronouns.

TRAs: Sex is assigned at birth
TRA's: say we never said sex was assigned at birth, gender is assigned at birth and now it's gender identity is assigned at birth.

The quiz masters need to get together and agree the questions and answers.

They will be squabbling with each other for decades.

@RedDogsBeg

gender identity is simply identifying with a particular set of terms, labels, and pronouns, that's it.

So how the fuck is it assigned at birth? You really talk a veritable load of codswallop.

Intriguing how the argument from TRAs changes and contradicts itself over and over, we've had:

TRAs: Born in the wrong body
TRA'S: We never said anyone was born in the wrong body

TRAs: Sex isn't real it's a construct
TRAs: We never said sex wasn't real

TRAs: Biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed
TRAs: We never said biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed we know humans can't change sex

TRA'S: Gender identity is innate.
TRA'S: We never said gender identity is innate, gender identity is unquantifiable, shifting, unexplainable and whatever anyone says it is.

TRAs: Sex role stereotypes determine gender
TRA's: We never said sex role stereotypes determine gender, gender is now apparently terms, labels and pronouns.

TRAs: Sex is assigned at birth
TRA's: say we never said sex was assigned at birth, gender is assigned at birth and now it's gender identity is assigned at birth.

Exactly!

If gender is how you feel inside, how can it be determined at birth! Transpeople wouldn't exist.

Cis women are a subset of women

Women aren't a subset of woman, we are the whole category. You can keep your nonsensical in group labels and jargon.

Quite, it's so off the scale offensive and misogynistic.

So under your concept of womanhood, what is it that all women have in common with each other but not with men? Not just “what are the labels they chose to use?” but the actual commonalities that the labels denote?

Do answer OP. I share a commonality with every woman in the world, including the Queen, a commonality that no transwoman ever will.

whereas you deny the misogyny experienced by trans women.

I think you mean misandry. Only Women and Trans men experience misogyny.

gender identity is simply identifying with a particular set of terms, labels, and pronouns,

So it’s meaningless and can be ignored?

@RedDogsBeg

gender identity is simply identifying with a particular set of terms, labels, and pronouns, that's it.

So how the fuck is it assigned at birth? You really talk a veritable load of codswallop.

Intriguing how the argument from TRAs changes and contradicts itself over and over, we've had:

TRAs: Born in the wrong body
TRA'S: We never said anyone was born in the wrong body

TRAs: Sex isn't real it's a construct
TRAs: We never said sex wasn't real

TRAs: Biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed
TRAs: We never said biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed we know humans can't change sex

TRA'S: Gender identity is innate.
TRA'S: We never said gender identity is innate, gender identity is unquantifiable, shifting, unexplainable and whatever anyone says it is.

TRAs: Sex role stereotypes determine gender
TRA's: We never said sex role stereotypes determine gender, gender is now apparently terms, labels and pronouns.

TRAs: Sex is assigned at birth
TRA's: say we never said sex was assigned at birth, gender is assigned at birth and now it's gender identity is assigned at birth.

TRAs: Biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed TRAs: We never said biological sex isn't immutable and can be changed we know humans can't change sex

There’s an update on that:
You can now totally change sex. Science has now caught up.
But not fully, science hasn’t caught up that much.

@Orangemochafrappacino

Forgive me if I'm being thick but surely this whole debate could be eliminated if we collectively decided on the language to describe sex vs gender? Eg female is the sex, feminine is the gender identity or along those lines.

Once we have the language set in stone and its objective not subjective then we can look at certain situations and decide whether they need to be segregated by sex or by gender. Ie sports/prisons etc by sex, other areas by gender.

We seem to be stuck in some kind of limbo at the moment where woman is a sex label to some and a gender label to others and the debate cant go anywhere without proper meaningful language.

The TRAs don't want the language set in stone. It suits them to keep the discussion wooly and difficult to grasp. As evidenced by this shitshow of a thread.

TRAs want to say that transwomen are women and are female. While simultaneously telling women that they are "cis" and a subset of women.

TRAs want to say that transwomen are women and are female. While simultaneously telling women that they are "cis" and a subset of women.

Here's something I don't understand: if trans women are women, it follows that women are trans women, right? (Not sure where "cis" women come in then.) I've also heard that everyone is trans. Is this what they mean?

Note: I'm not sure how much of this post is serious.

@user888

There's more sense in a Dr Seuss book than in posts started by @CuriousPanda

Related to that.

If transwomen are women then why is there a need for any change in appearance, name, even surgery. That many transwomen do (apart from genital surgery and I don't blame them).

If TWAW then why the need for the trans part. Just women surely.

If TWAW then why do transwomen have various things they want changed that women don't need (or often want).

If TWAW then why would a transwoman be involved in eg trans groups, become trans officer in university etc?

The answer is of course because transwomen are transwomen and face many different issues that female people don't, and vice versa.

@user888

TRAs want to say that transwomen are women and are female. While simultaneously telling women that they are "cis" and a subset of women.

Here's something I don't understand: if trans women are women, it follows that women are trans women, right? (Not sure where "cis" women come in then.) I've also heard that everyone is trans. Is this what they mean?

Note: I'm not sure how much of this post is serious.

If squares are rectangles, it follows that rectangles are squares?

If Socrates is a man, it follows that all men are Socrates?

Simply put, learn basic set theory, I'm begging you.

White women are women, this doesn't mean all women are white.

@GromblesofGrimbledon
The TRAs don't want the language set in stone.

There is language set in stone, there's literally the terms "cis men" and "cis women".

But of course, you hate that, because it normalizes trans people as being part of a larger group that you don't believe they "deserve" to be considered part of.

@NiceGerbil

Related to that.

If transwomen are women then why is there a need for any change in appearance, name, even surgery. That many transwomen do (apart from genital surgery and I don't blame them).

If TWAW then why the need for the trans part. Just women surely.

If TWAW then why do transwomen have various things they want changed that women don't need (or often want).

If TWAW then why would a transwoman be involved in eg trans groups, become trans officer in university etc?

The answer is of course because transwomen are transwomen and face many different issues that female people don't, and vice versa.

Because there are notable physical differences from cis women, no trans person is denying that. The point is that these physical characteristics should not dictate one's identity.

You will decry any explicit comparison as offensive, but there are plenty groups of women who suffer from issues that other groups of women simply don't. That doesn't mean they're not women.

Oh good!

We've got onto the racist idea that black women (female) are in the same boat as transwomen (male)...

Awesome.

@NiceGerbil

Oh good!

We've got onto the racist idea that black women (female) are in the same boat as transwomen (male)...

Awesome.

I didn't mention black women, or that it's a matter of "same boat", just the factual reality that there's issues faced by some women that simply aren't faced by other women.

[quote CuriousPanda]@GromblesofGrimbledon
The TRAs don't want the language set in stone.

There is language set in stone, there's literally the terms "cis men" and "cis women".

But of course, you hate that, because it normalizes trans people as being part of a larger group that you don't believe they "deserve" to be considered part of.[/quote]
Nooooo

It unilaterally redefines the words in the English language that have forever meant adult/ juvenile female human.

It leaves no words for juvenile/ adult human female.

It frankly disrespects at s fundamental level the ongoing fight around the world for the rights of female human juvenile / adult humans.

The fight for women to get the vote, be able to own property, to have themselves and their children not be property, to have male people raping their female spouse illegal (early 90s in England).

It makes any and all things though history and now... Totally different in meaning.

A vindication of the rights of women.

Was not about physical sex. But about internal gender ID.

Your disrespect of the reality for women and girls through history and around the world. And the brave women who fought. Through history. All through history we have fought against our Oppression due to our sex.

You demolish it all.

Because you arrogantly decide the words girl and woman have never been related to our physical sex.

So you take the entire global millennia old fight for women and girls.

You say it has nothing to do with our biology.

I hope you're having fun here. While female children, babies and adults around the world suffer due to their sex.

'But of course, you hate that, because it normalizes trans people as being part of a larger group that you don't believe they "deserve" to be considered part of.'

Oops!
It's men who decide how women and girls should behave dress etc.

Deserve?

You believe that female humans do NOT deserve basic protection from the obvious risks that males as a group present.

Oh I forgot.

The risk is all in our heads. Because there is no overall difference in strength etc.