How is it "gender critical" to impose rigid binary social categories based on sex?

[CuriousPanda]

For most of history, the whole point of feminism was to oppse sex-based segregation and restrictions that were imposed by patriarchal society.

So I don't see how supporting strict gender categories, and simply calling them "sex-based" instead, in any way leans itself to "gender abolition".

One might get impression that "gender" is simply being used to mean trans people existing, and "gender abolition" simply means restricting trans people from being able to transition and use different gender labels. And basically nothing else.

With "sex-based rules and restrictions" being basically just gender roles but trans-proofed.

'Yes, you are a subset. Cis women are a subset of women, in the same way white women are a subset of women, straight women are a subset of women, able-bodied are a subset of women.'

Says the person getting angry about people not being able to identify however they wish

Wow wow wow, black/white/Asian/Hispanic women are not a "subset of women" horrific....they are women. Disabled women able bodied women are not subsets.

We are all women. We have shared unique experiences, shared biology. Nobody is a "subset".

What would I be a fucking mutant woman in your eyes?. I can happily tell you that genetically I am one of 66.6 million people as my stored genetic karyotyping is the only balanced chromosomal translocation of its kind in the UK.

Tell you what I'll just walk round and refer to myself as:

46,XX, t(3;8)(q25.3;q13)

Funny though look what I have... 46 chromosomes, XX are my (sex chromosmes) which makes me a woman and then I have a translocation of chromosomes t(3;8) and (q25.3;q13)

I'm not a "mutant" woman I'm not a subset, I'm a woman.

And that there are women who are different from you in many ways.

All humans are different to each other in many ways.

However, we use labels to capture ways in which we are the same. That’s kind of the point.

So under your concept of womanhood, what is it that all women have in common with each other but not with men? Not just “what are the labels they chose to use?” but the actual commonalities that the labels denote?

[quote CuriousPanda]@NiceGerbil
1. Sex based oppression is and always has been a massive global issue. Given that statements like 'women in Afghanistan were subjected to extreme Oppression under the taleban' are incorrect in this context. What words should be used to describe which half of people were subject to that oppression?

How is it incorrect? Trans women being included in that category does not make that statement false...

And do you think the Taliban doesn't oppress trans people?

2. When there is an elevated risk to half the population in specific circumstances, from the other half, again due to sex. Why should members of the other sex gain access based on the word they call themselves?

Do you think being of a particular sex makes someone inherently a danger?[/quote]
???

Transwomen in that regime have two choices.

1. Present and 'live as a man'. This way being executed can be avoided.

1. Present and live as a woman.. How? Women were not allowed to work, were the property of male relatives. I'm not sure how anyone could even attempt to get into the the societal position of a woman given those limitations.

You'd need to have a male relative who was willing to, in an extremely dangerous society, support you, lie for you, and hide you. Failure means death. I can't think of other approaches.

In the event of discovery you would been seen as just generally aberrant. Maybe homosexual. Death.

The idea that transwomen would be in exactly the same boat as women is very peculiar. The option to follow the rules for males would mean no trouble. And how could you even do otherwise?

Yes of course everyone who deviated from very strict sex roles was in massive danger.

Were transwomen subjected to the exact same oppression for the exact same reasons? No. They didn't execute vagina people for confirming to their sex role. That was a good thing. (And fucking awful for female sex human people).

Quote:The UK law, the one you frequently refer to as the ultimate authority on the meaning of words, refers to "woman" and "man" as being part of gender.

The UK government defines sex as:
• referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
• generally male or female
• something that is assigned at birth

The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman: unquote

As I pointed out before OP you are missing the bold out on an important part of that, it’s:
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender*

By your logic, transwomen must be a subset of men then.

Yes history and experience shows time and time again that there is an inherent risk.

The soldiers who carried out the rape of Berlin. The rape stats in South Africa. What happened in DRC.

In different situations men, ordinary men, become massively more likely to rape.

You can't usually tell which men are ok and which are not.

That's not relevant though given that if only feminists hadn't told women they were weak, none of that would have happened.

@chickenyhead I can’t believe this person attacked you! I’ve seen you try so hard to find a middle ground on loads of threads. I think you are an ace poster and I bet this poster has shown you why most of us are so angry. Keep posting because you absolutely show why calling this absolute shite out is important.

Cis women are a subset of women

Women aren't a subset of woman, we are the whole category. You can keep your nonsensical in group labels and jargon.

'The belief that women are fragile delicate flowers, inherently weaker than men and thus in need of constant sheltering, is the patriarchal belief, actually.'

NO you don't understand the patriarchy at all I'm afraid. At least learn something about feminism before trying to lecture us all about it won't you.

Accept that your is not the only kind of being. And that there are women who are different from you in many ways.

Sure but the only ones you are posting about are actually completely different to women because they are actually male.

This is just making me laugh now.

And that there are women who are different from you in many ways.

There are. But not one single one of them is of the sex that can produce small motile gametes.

I'm frankly aghast at the utter lack of humanity involved in trying to make a point.

And the utter disinterest in the appalling logical endpoints of many posts. Ignoring minorites and groups who have been brutally oppressed through history, and still are all around the world.

I do not deny that women experience oppression, or that this oppression is largely based on whether the person is perceived as a woman.

You have just outright denied that women are and have always been oppressed on the basis of our actual sex. By those actually of the opposite sex.

Misogyny denier. And lying about being a misogyny denier.

Of course. What else is a liar going to do but lie?

or that this oppression is largely based on whether the person is perceived as a woman.

So you do agree that non passing MTF trans people don't suffer this oppression? So the majority then. You already implied yesterday that gay and lesbian people likely wouldn't find them attractive.

Oof, patriarchy now defining subsets of women, for the benefit of, ah yes, the man.

Handmaids 101 is here folks!

Trump is fully on your side on this issue.

Bugger that. Trump sees women as a convenient arse to squeeze. He would have conniptions if he discovered that she was a he.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

I do not deny that women experience oppression, or that this oppression is largely based on whether the person is perceived as a woman.

You have just outright denied that women are and have always been oppressed on the basis of our actual sex. By those actually of the opposite sex.

Misogyny denier. And lying about being a misogyny denier.

Of course. What else is a liar going to do but lie?

The only one who is denying misogyny here is you. I've never denied that cis women face misogyny, whereas you deny the misogyny experienced by trans women.

I find the repetition of all the nonsensical arguments about gendah ultimately becomes funny because it's so futile.

Believe what you like about your self, have your own perception of yourself but no one else has to share it and demanding "acceptance" is a dead end.

Cis women are a subset of women

Strictly speaking women who identify with their gender oppression - ‘Cis’ as you put it - are a subset of women. Goodness knows what they are thinking, but technically you are right.

However, I don’t think many women on this thread identify as ‘Cis’, so please don’t use the term to refer to others without permission.

Accept that your is not the only kind of being. And that there are women who are different from you in many ways
Oh, believe me, I do accept that. But one thing ALL women have in common is being female, with bodies designed to release large, slow-moving gametes and gestate, and then nourish, human young. Sometimes there is a glitch which means the body is unable to fulfil the reproductive function. That body is still female. If your car won't start, it doesn't suddenly transform into a steam iron. It's just a malfunctioning car.
A body born designed to produce small, fast-moving gametes is not and never can be female, and thus never a woman. I might have much or little in common with that person; but we ain't the same sex.

'Accept that your is not the only kind of being. And that there are women who are different from you in many ways.'

Yes. Language, country, culture, sex role, religion, living in war zones, having various political views etc etc.

What we ALL have in common is that we have limiting expectations put on us because of our sex. To a greater or lesser degree, and with different levels of punishment for not conforming.

I care about all... Vagina people. Very much. Wherever they are and whatever is being done to them because of their sex.

Male people who do not meet the standards of their sex role are also oppressed. Of course. But it is not the same as the oppression that female people face.

No one should be oppressed. Feminists focus on women and girls.

Why do those interested in trans rights not get agitating about the countries that are most oppressive to trans people?

Rather than going on and on at us?

whereas you deny the misogyny experienced by trans women.

Again, it’s very difficult to draw any conclusions about any group that can’t be defined objectively.