Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics

[andyoldlabour]

Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics, in the women's 5000m and 10000m. Francine has the same 46 XY DSD as Caster Semenya and due to the very strange IOC/WA rules is only barred from events between 400m and 1 mile.
At Francine's very first attempt at 10000m they beat the Burundi national record by 20s. Francine has run just 2 5000m races, but beat the Burundi national record twice.

runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/francine-niyonsaba-runs-10000m-olympic-standard-at-ethiopian-trials/

[quote OhHolyJesus]Sticking with their story and looking to scope creep into the I.

twitter.com/stonewalluk/status/1413173016117272580?s=21[/quote]
Is it usual for Stonewall to disable responses on twitter?

Okay if you’re not sowing confusion on purpose I apologise for being snarky! I suspected you because TRAs thrive off creating confusion, especially around intersex issues.

But even if it’s not deliberate, you are still sowing confusion! You said “phenotypically female” and expanded on that to say athletes with XY androgen sensitive DSDs on the IOC list might have a uterus.

Your links don’t appear to back up what you’re saying. You be linked a one off case study of a person who was not an Olympic athlete who had a neovagina constructed (so... ambiguous genitalia, then, like I said.)

And then you linked another paper about an extremely rare disorder with 60 instances recorded in history, (not very likely any of those 60 were Olympic athletes either) and from that paper you’ve quoted a line that says females with the disorder (XX people then?) have menstrual problems and infertility as they get older. What’s that got to do with your claim that there exist androgen sensitive XY Olympic athletes with wombs?

@allmywhat “Females with 46, XY karyotype. Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology Science. Jung et al. 2017.” Hopefully you can access the full paper based on that information- case 1. It states that MRI revealed a small uterus.

I also think a gonadectomy must be a pretty crap think to go through.

FWIW I also don’t think any of this means athletes don’t have an unfair advantage. I just also think it is really confusing and there is no getting away from that.

No I’m not try to disrupt - and I am also following the Emma Hilton thread linked to above.

The two conditions that I linked to are specifically listed in the IAAF DSD regulations, and those DSDs are all listed as XY,46 karyotopes. I apologise if that’s sowing confusion or if those DSDs can also be 46,XX.

DSDs are rare and as Dr Hilton points out will take some time to determine exactly which ones are involved - that paper I linked to for the female with the pseudo vagina (sorry, I did type neo vagina in previous post) is an example of one of the specific listed conditions, which is why I included it. I assumed that the pseudo vagina was natural rather than created, as the patient was being investigated for primary amenorrhea (I doubt you’d be expecting menstruation if the vagina had been surgically created).

I’m surprised that the Namibian athletes haven’t been picked up earlier though, as I would have thought that testing would have been done at the previous international events that they competed in.

Perhaps someone will produce papers on actual elite athletes at some point; I guess because they are currently competing and would be potentially identifiable that’s unlikely for the time being.

Is it usual for Stonewall to disable responses on twitter?

Not sure to be honest, I usually avoid that cesspit, I imagine they like to wallow in the woke as much as possible to validate what they have done and continue to do.

Seems odd though.

I’m honestly confused how you managed to quote the papers without reading them! It’s clear that there was a neovagina created in the first case, and in the second case that the disorder occurs in both males and females.

But all that is beside the point in any case. Those are outliers among outliers, rare even compared to rare DSDs. And these aren’t the XY DSD athletes attending the Olympics. I don’t even think they’d have an unfair advantage necessarily; unsurprisingly it sounds like these exceptionally rare or even unique conditions are disabling. But it’s vanishingly unlikely that any Olympic athletes have those conditions.

I don’t even think they’d have an unfair advantage necessarily

I should add for avoidance of doubt: this doesn’t mean they belong in the female category, which should be clearly ringfenced.

It looks as though there are NINE African athletes with the same DSD. But of course, everyone who objects to them competing against women is obviously racist.

gal-dem.com/athletics-war-of-transphobia-and-misogynoir-black-african-women-losing/?utm_campaign=TwitterAutoPost&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

But of course, everyone who objects to them competing against women is obviously racist.

How do they get away with such a deeply racist argument? They are literally conflating being a black woman with having a Y chromosome, as if those qualities are somehow connected. It’s repulsively racist.

Yes, exactly what I was thinking allmywhat. It's the "black women are manly" troupe writ large. And people can't see it.

Apologies if I have expressed that clumsily. hopefully people understand what I mean.

Trope? Rather that troupe! I think.

It's the "black women are manly" troupe writ large

I thought that too - it seems incredibly racist.

[quote andyoldlabour]It looks as though there are NINE African athletes with the same DSD. But of course, everyone who objects to them competing against women is obviously racist.

gal-dem.com/athletics-war-of-transphobia-and-misogynoir-black-african-women-losing/?utm_campaign=TwitterAutoPost&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter[/quote]
I think if you have been offered a gonadectomy it’s a pretty good indication that you are not a biological woman with XX chromosomes.

It’s not a racist attack on black African athletes. It is a timely challenge to those national coaching schemes, whatever continent they come from, who think finding DSD athletes to participate in women’s events is a quicker and cheaper way to boost a national medal tally than the long process of developing women’s sports at grass roots level and supporting promising young female athletes to achieve their potential.

The real people who are attacking and undermining female black African athletes are a lot closer to home than the IOC.

Articles like that make me so cross. They could set things out so clearly:

These people have XY chromosomes but this was not noted at birth due to DSDs so they were registered as female (and may have been brought up as such). And then carry on from there.

Instead the article tries to imply that black women have higher levels of testosterone than white women, and that rules have been set for a white 'norm' that is different from a 'black' norm.

Of course, what might be true, I have no idea, is that this DSD occurs more in black people than other races. If it does, then of course there may be a case for other categories in the Olympics (rather like the categories in the paralympics), and a case that if that does not happen athletes with this DSD (who may be disproportionately black) are disadvantaged.

Of course, what might be true, I have no idea, is that this DSD occurs more in black people than other races. If it does, then of course there may be a case for other categories in the Olympics (rather like the categories in the paralympics), and a case that if that does not happen athletes with this DSD (who may be disproportionately black) are disadvantaged.

Hang on - is it even the case that athletes with 5-ARD have any disadvantage? I've been under the impression that the effects are basically limited to the reproductive system. In which case no extra category would be required - they can compete in the male category and have as much opportunity as anyone else.

But yes, there could be some DSDs that case a disadvantage, but given the population there are likely 100s of more common health conditions that would be better candidates for Paralympic inclusion.

The fact that these disorders are "sexual", and have led to errors in sex categorisation doesn't give them priority on Paralympic impairment categorisation.

viques

"It’s not a racist attack on black African athletes. It is a timely challenge to those national coaching schemes, whatever continent they come from, who think finding DSD athletes to participate in women’s events is a quicker and cheaper way to boost a national medal tally than the long process of developing women’s sports at grass roots level and supporting promising young female athletes to achieve their potential."

That is exactly what I was getting at, you summed it up far more succinctly.

his is a study of intersex conditions. It states that the rate of intersex births is around 1.3/1000, so very low.
The reaserchers studied 14,200 babies, 18 of whom had ambiguous genitalia. Of those 15 had 46 XY DSD a condition in which a MALE infant can't use testosterone properly or testicles don't develop properly.

www.webmd.com/parenting/baby/news/20190503/study-about-1-in-1000-babies-born-intersex

This not "his"

In passing.

I think the Olympic rule makers are. Sexist. Racist. Why wouldn't they be racist? I think they were in the past. They don't like women obv. Why would they not have other dodgy ideas.

The fact in the women's stuff.

Some can run in this race, but not that race. On what grounds? Science apparently.

The same science that says

If your testicles are on the inside you can have a couple times more testosterone than the female athletes.

But if you're an outside testicles person. It can be just within the normal range for male competitors. And multiple times more than females have.

Science my arse.

I think DSD children do need to be protected from unscrupulous scouts.
On the issue of Semenya I’m uncomfortable with the idea of finding photos of her as a child as ‘proof’. We wouldn’t do that to a butch lesbian woman. We should absolutely insist on research and following the science on this. But wearing a dress or not shouldnt come into it.

In general I think DSD people probably, sadly can’t compete in women’s sport but I’m open minded about someDSD conditions it being possible as they can have quite different impacts.

open minded about someDSD conditions it being possible as they can have quite different impacts.

Indeed, the athletics rules are quite specific about the conditions restricted, it's not a blanket rule. It's a limited list of conditions - ones they know are an issue, like the common 5-ARD.

46XY athletes with CAIS are not excluded, for example.