Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics

[andyoldlabour]

Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics, in the women's 5000m and 10000m. Francine has the same 46 XY DSD as Caster Semenya and due to the very strange IOC/WA rules is only barred from events between 400m and 1 mile.
At Francine's very first attempt at 10000m they beat the Burundi national record by 20s. Francine has run just 2 5000m races, but beat the Burundi national record twice.

runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/francine-niyonsaba-runs-10000m-olympic-standard-at-ethiopian-trials/

@Micemakingclothes We are all caught up in this debate, everyone in our society.

There are people with a Y chromosome that get no sporting advantage from testosterone. In Caitynn Jenner’s day they were doing a cheek swab test go check for a Y chromosome. There were some athletes who we think were genuinely surprised by the results.. they knew they hadn’t standard gnae development, but didn’t consider themselves male.
They abandoned the Y test restriction as a result, and replaced it with initially no restriction and then just this middle-distance testosterone restriction.

This really needs proper reporting, consideration and debate without the constant cries of racism, transphobia and misogyny.

There needs to be a resolution to ensure a level playing field for females.

The simple Y chromosome test was done internationally 1966-1991. There is some more fancy dna testing done now which also identifies competitors with a defence against doping with t. The fancy tests might not be done for all levels of sport, so a young athlete could have made significant investment in a particular career by the time the DSD is publicly revealed.
Caster Semenya apparently wanted to be a footballer but was persuaded to compete in women’s athletics.

This really needs proper reporting, consideration and debate without the constant cries of racism, transphobia and misogyny.

I do agree with this and to make it a considered debate I think it's unfair to call someone who is brought up as a female a man, and continuing to do so will only further the agro.

Everyone within athletics wants this to be sorted and fairly, but it is difficult for current athletes to speak out as they don't want to be deemed as racist or anything else that may affect the sponsorship- especially as it is not easy to secure at the moment. When Lynsey Sharp spoke about Semenya (however clumsily) she was slaughtered by the media (of course her previous old firm football comments didn't help matters).

There is a lot of pressure behind these athletes from their governing bodies. It would not be easy for them to choose to reduce their testosterone through medication or not compete- many have Nike contracts who are the most unethical athletics sponsor and will do anything to make money from an athlete by whatever means (like Salazar).

It's a tangled web, it's shit. The athletes themselves are not to blame in my opinion.

www.change.org/p/international-olympic-committee-suspend-the-international-olympic-committee-s-transgender-policy?recruiter=9180747&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=67c16ac0-c974-012f-f158-40406f61fb41&utm_content=fht-17984608-en-gb%3Av12

Not sure if there is a better place to post this? We only seem to have two boards now ☹️

It's a tangled web, it's shit. The athletes themselves are not to blame in my opinion.

It’s hard not to be sympathetic to the athletes - with appearance and prize money and lucrative sponsorship deals they can be the main breadwinners that support their families.

Caster Semenya apparently wanted to be a footballer but was persuaded to compete in women’s athletics.

Semenya, having won in the latter, has returned to the former, in 2019 Semenya joined a South African women's football club.

"So the South African, has started training with Gauteng-based JVW FC with a view to making her debut next season as the transfer window is currently closed.
“I am grateful for this opportunity and I appreciate the love and support I already get from the team,” she told the club’s website. “I am looking forward to this new journey, and hopefully I can contribute as much as I can to the club.”
Club founder and South Africa captain Janine Van Wyk said: “I am absolutely honoured that out of all the other women’s clubs around the world, she has chosen JVW as the club where she would like to start showcasing her football skills."

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/06/caster-semenya-starts-new-journey-after-joining-football-team

We should never lose sight nor forget the names of the women who have lost their rightful medals to men.

Check out shewon.org

Can I please ask a question as I come from this from the athletics side where the trans debate and DSD debate are different and are being argued separately. Is this the same over here? Just because there seems to be a crossover on this thread (the petition and the link to shewon are related to trans athletes- unless I missed the DSD affected athletes on there)

Hands up if I made a mistake in linking these. I can appreciate that they may be separate issues.

For me, I guess it is quite simple. I want only biological women, XX, in women’s sport. I think that is the only fair way.

I do appreciate that it must be incredibly hard for some DSD athletes. However, I think it also must be incredibly hard for biological XX women who are unlikely to win if XY athletes are allowed to compete. Is this a too simplistic way to view it?

I do appreciate that it must be incredibly hard for some DSD athletes. However, I think it also must be incredibly hard for biological XX women who are unlikely to win if XY athletes are allowed to compete. Is this a too simplistic way to view it?

No - if those XY athletes have a male biological advantage over XX athletes then it’s unfair.

There needs to be proper research into the XY advantages (or lack of) of DSD athletes at all distances, not just middle distances. Has that elevated testosterone contributed to lean muscle mass and fast twitch fibres that might give an advantage to sprinters, for instance?

I think most people want the same @BatmansBat but I guess my worry is that it may set up people with DSD to then have people be transphobic against them when they have never transitioned and are just who they were brought up to be.

I'm not saying that people with xy chromosomes should compete in female disciplines but the DSD issue needs to be tackled with the governing bodies who are allowing it to happen (and actively seeking out these athletes) as they will do everything to find loopholes.

Male athletes transitioning to female and competing is different in my eyes as the athletes know 100% what they are doing without coercion or threats by their governing body or Nike to take their livelihood away.

@Helleofabore

This one is going to be ignored too I am afraid. Just like the Rio event where top 3 were all males with DSDs. Until the OIC and WA face the reality of the science, nothing will get better for the females competing against males.

Did the other two have the same DSD as CS? I think it's called 46,XY 5-ARD?

Trans athletes and athletes with DSD conditions are separate but they are linked.

Would we have Laurel Hubbard if we didn't have Caster Semenya? Maybe we still would, but for me it's a "how it started, how it's going" situation. DSD athletes have been the Trojan horse for women's sport for a long time now. (You have to hand it to them, it's clever.)

Semenya was not raised as a girl and isn't trans, but it has proven convenient and necessary for this narrative of Semenya being a 'girl' to be be juxtaposed with trans rights in order to compete in women's sport.

We have known the results of DNA tests for 11 years now and we are still being convinced that Semenya is a victim of circumstance and not a cheat who has been surrounded by many who spin the same narrative for financial gain and the competitive advantage and continues to do so.

I don’t know. It is public that all three were XY, and all can utilise the testosterone that their gonads produce. It is public that all three were subject to the 10nmol/L rule then the 5nmol/L rule.

The five (5) nmol/L regulations, from IAAF come into effect from 1 November 2018.. so this is the first Olympics since.

DSD and trans are two different groups of people, and DSD males may or may not be victims of unethical scouts. It's the end result I care about: men cheating women out of their rightful sport wins.

@OhHolyJesus I always thought Semenya was raised as a female, it's certainly in the public domain that she was assigned as a female at birth. Do you have any links as I have just looked but can't find any.

I thought her story was that she thought she was female and had sex testing done behind her back (thinking it was a drugs test) but I may be wrong or my info may be outdated.

[quote NerrSnerr]@OhHolyJesus I always thought Semenya was raised as a female, it's certainly in the public domain that she was assigned as a female at birth. Do you have any links as I have just looked but can't find any.

I thought her story was that she thought she was female and had sex testing done behind her back (thinking it was a drugs test) but I may be wrong or my info may be outdated. [/quote]
Semenya didn't have a birth certificate until the age of 16, so this whole "AFAB" is nonsense.

Do we actually know she was brought up male though? I have tried to search and I can only find articles that say she was brought up female and nothing the other way. Where has it come from? I'm not trying to argue- just wondering where I am missing it?

There are photos of Caster with school mates. There was a male school uniform and a female one. Caster wears the male version. The headteacher at the time believed Caster was male. Caster has done lots of interviews about having only male playmates, too.
There is no concrete evidence of being raised male though.

Thanks @OneEpisode. It is such a minefield and makes my head want to explode.

This is an article that talks about CS's childhood and has a photo of her in boy's uniform because it was preferred to girl's uniform.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

This is as close as they get to mentioning DSD.

"It seems unlikely that so many people could lie about Caster Semenya's sex. Now, medical experts are speculating that she may be a quirk of nature - a woman with either under-developed male sexual organs inside her body, or an abnormal number of male chromosomes."

Sure Nerr.

From the DM in 2009, the same year the DNA tests results were leaked to the global media, see photos of Caster with the other school children, a boy and a girl, in a boys schools uniform and consider whether a girl would be permitted to wear the school uniform provided for boys at a strict Catholic school in Limpopo.

'She wouldn't wear dresses and sounds like a man on the phone': Caster Semenya's father on his sex-riddle daughter

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

Also notice the article name Semenya as a man and also as a 'girl' throughout the article.

"The name of this unusual student? Step forward Caster Semenya, 18-year-old from an impoverished black township who is at the centre of a row raging across the world following allegations that she is, in fact, a man."

From parts of the article you could think that Semenya have been, what we now call, a gender non confirming girl. If we didn't have DNA test results (that have since disappeared from the internet) we could be less to believe that. I'm not convinced that a girl from a strict Catholic school in rural South Africa, where girls are still to this day at a disadvantage, would be allowed to wear trousers just because she wanted to.

(I've lived in SA and worked in education and see no evidence of schools like Caster's being anywhere near as accommodating and relaxed as has been claimed.)

On the trans athletes issue:

From the Guardian today

www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/jun/22/by-conflating-gender-and-sex-we-undermine-sporting-competition?fbclid=IwAR36tCLsBqHKH-YyOpacfMkhKjZa615xfRC5A6ShtBln74gLYq-KKEEL9e0