Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics

[andyoldlabour]

Francine Niyonsaba has qualified for Tokyo Olympics, in the women's 5000m and 10000m. Francine has the same 46 XY DSD as Caster Semenya and due to the very strange IOC/WA rules is only barred from events between 400m and 1 mile.
At Francine's very first attempt at 10000m they beat the Burundi national record by 20s. Francine has run just 2 5000m races, but beat the Burundi national record twice.

runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/francine-niyonsaba-runs-10000m-olympic-standard-at-ethiopian-trials/

I really recommend the Science of Sport podcast if you want to understand male v female advantage, DSD and how the IAAF have got to their current position around eligibility:
play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/caster-semenya-explaining-sex-vs-gender-in-sport
play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/the-caster-semenya-decision-explained
play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/thecaseofcaster-whyprincipletrumpedbadevidence-herfuture-whatitmeansforthefutureofwomenssport

Ross Tucker has been closely involved in this for years and talks very candidly about how his opinion on what is fair and inclusive has changed as he's learned more from the data. He was also involved in producing the World Rugby guidelines. They did a great episode on trans athletes recently too:

play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/whytransgenderathletesthreatenfairnessinwomenssport

Caster has signed up as a footballer.

For most athletes, progressing from being a national level 800m runner to being a national level 5,000m runner would take many years, and be prompted by the effects of the ageing process, not merely a desire to switch. To be able to switch almost overnight is quite remarkable. Some great runners do have a remarkable range, but not to the extent of being able to represent their country at that range of events. At the sharp end, you are either a 800m runner or a 5,000/10,000m runner. Well, that's what it used to be like - the world and "biology" seem to have changed a lot recently.

Article from BBC website talking about "women with naturally high testorone levels" not allowed to compete at the Olympics.

www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-57748135

witheringrowan - Ross is excellent. He makes it all very accessible and clear. He knows his onions.

Benjamin Boyce also recently talked on this topic to Coach Linda Blade. She is an amazing woman, it’s well worth a listen: overcast.fm/+P_FXXCxhY, or you can find it on his YouTube channel or wherever you get your podcasts.

But asking someone to take medication to alter something in a body they are happy with is controversial.

"I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi.

No shit. You’d lose your advantage eh?

@Fulmar

For most athletes, progressing from being a national level 800m runner to being a national level 5,000m runner would take many years, and be prompted by the effects of the ageing process, not merely a desire to switch. To be able to switch almost overnight is quite remarkable. Some great runners do have a remarkable range, but not to the extent of being able to represent their country at that range of events. At the sharp end, you are either a 800m runner or a 5,000/10,000m runner. Well, that's what it used to be like - the world and "biology" seem to have changed a lot recently.

Unless you're Jess Judd who was a 1.59 800m runner (almost got that junior record) and now at the tender age of 26 has run a 15.06 5k and a 31.20 10k this season. She is highly unusual though (and a proper role model!)

Yes there will be new records obv
Few days ago a beauty queen
Woman of the year
First woman to serve on frontline in British army
And
First female directed movie trilogy the matrix

Sure there's plenty more firsts...

Another first: the first blind woman to run for parliament.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Brothers

@NotBadConsidering

Semenya and Niyonsaba are subject to a Court of Arbitration ruling about males with disorders of sexual differentiation based on evidence presented by World Athletics/IAAF pertaining only to middle distance running and the impact of males with DSDs competing against women.

Hubbard is subject to the rulings made by the IOC and IWF after listening to a transwoman cobble together 8 mates to come up with some shonky research about trans athletes and convincing them that millions of years of human evolution giving us sexual dimorphism didn’t matter that much.

Both are bullshit, but they’re different for different reasons. The only reason Semenya hasn’t done what Niyonsaba has done is because Semenya is rubbish at 5000m, even compared to women.

All true and accurately summarised.

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Another first: the first blind woman to run for parliament.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Brothers[/quote]
Marsha de Cordova might disagree - she’s registered blind and was elected as MP for Battersea in 2017.

Ah, I’ll revise that as Marsha was the first elected blind woman MP. Brothers stood in 2015 but failed to be elected.

@NerrSnerr

I think most people want the same *@BatmansBat* but I guess my worry is that it may set up people with DSD to then have people be transphobic against them when they have never transitioned and are just who they were brought up to be.

I'm not saying that people with xy chromosomes should compete in female disciplines but the DSD issue needs to be tackled with the governing bodies who are allowing it to happen (and actively seeking out these athletes) as they will do everything to find loopholes.

Male athletes transitioning to female and competing is different in my eyes as the athletes know 100% what they are doing without coercion or threats by their governing body or Nike to take their livelihood away.

MTF trans athletes still have the benefit of having gone through puberty as male. The extra testosterone leaves its mark throughout the body: men are usually taller with longer limbs; they have more lean muscle, less body fat, and more "fast twitch" muscles; larger heart and lungs; stronger, thicker bones. Those advantages do not disappear just because they lower T levels for a few months or even years. The athletic organizations' rules about T levels simply do not take this into account. Follow other threads about trans athletes for the details and also for the incomplete and unscientific bases for the Olympic Committee's ludicrously incoherent decisions.

If you went through puberty as a male, then you should never be allowed to compete as a female athlete, in any sport. The situation with DSDs is complicated, but that principle at least is bedrock.

PearPicking the problem is that the : science' gets thrown around to sound clever and reassuring that they've really thought about it and etc. Most people probably would think the Olympics etc are interested in fair competition and so would do the right thing.

They didn't start with the question is it fair and safe to include any male people in women's sport and are there any other considerations with this.

Their starting point was the right thing to do is allow some transwomen to compete in women's sports. What shall we use to decide who and what level?

Women who think it's silly are then told to disprove this that and they other. And of course for the vast vast majority of male and female people it is bleeding obvious who is which. And has always been since we were pre verbal I'm sure. Mammals tend to know what's what don't they. But with humans it's very complicated? Of course it isn't. But women are forever being asked about this disorder that disorder what about these brainwaves and etc etc etc.

The fact that they know perfectly well what the differences between male and female are but have decided to pretend they don't and tell women that it's very scientific so go away is... How did we get to this ludicrous position?! Well we were put in it is the answer.

"Unless you're Jess Judd who was a 1.59 800m runner (almost got that junior record) and now at the tender age of 26 has run a 15.06 5k and a 31.20 10k this season. She is highly unusual though (and a proper role model!)"

My point was it doesn't happen overnight - there's a 7 year gap between her 1.59 and 31.20.

[quote BlindyPeakers]Article from BBC website talking about "women with naturally high testorone levels" not allowed to compete at the Olympics.

www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-57748135[/quote]
I just came to see if that had been posted. Quite from the article:
*"Namibian track and field stars Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi - both aged 18 - have turned in four of the top five women's 400m times in the world this year.

They were on a fast-track to Olympic medals, but then their stellar rise came to a sudden halt.

The pair have been banned from competing in the women's 400m race at the Tokyo Games. The reasoning: their natural testosterone levels are too high."*

If they are female then there testosterone would never be too high.

If only we could figure out why these athletes have naturally high testosterone 🤔
Maybe Joanna Harper could do one of their rigorous studies & the mystery would be solved.

Isn't it amazing the high proportion of female athletes that have DSD? It's almost as though they've been chosen to train and compete against women because of their condition.

What is sad though is that we now know that if they were female athletes, they actually would not be subject to these tests, so we can see through the bullshit being piled high.

Many people do not have that background knowledge so believe those articles.

The twisting of truth in this way is a very unhealthy way forward.

I just read that bbc article and came here to see if anyone could clarify. Do the two Namibian runners have high testosterone because they also have a Y chromosome?

They have Y chromosomes FlyPassed….

Do the two Namibian runners have high testosterone because they also have a Y chromosome?

Yes. And we know this because if they did not have a Y chromosome, then high testosterone would not bar them from competing.

It's the combination of Y chromosomes + high testosterone that is limited in the rules.

If they are female then there testosterone would never be too high.

Well, it would be too high to be healthy, and something that should be treated, but it wouldn't be too high for the sporting rules.

They know that a female with high natural testosterone is at a disadvantage, due to being ill.

But the condition these Namibian runners have with "natural high testosterone" is a well-known and extremely common one called "being male". And there is an existing category for such individuals that they are free to compete in.

Thanks @Bat and @BatmansBat
You shouldn't need to be an expert on a subject to make sense of a news stirt written by the national, publicly funded broadcaster and yet here we are!

But I suppose "males disqualified from female competition" doesn't garner the same degree of sympathy or outrage.

If I thought it would make a difference, I'd complain.

Surely the sporting bodies should be issuing statements to clarify.

News reports like this are painting them as capricious and unreasonable. Don't they have to do something to defend their reputation?