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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Webberley

978 replies

Signalbox · 05/07/2021 11:59

Looks like Helem Webberley's substantive case has finally been listed for 26th July 2021

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

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Signalbox · 02/10/2021 19:10

However you do frequently get multiple testimonial statements from patients that may be taken into consideration in the last stage of the hearing. These are not considered at the fact finding stage though.

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CharlieParley · 02/10/2021 19:28

Thanks for the link to PtA' testimony, Leafstamp.

Reading it, I'm immediately struck by the inappropriate inclusion of tweets on the page. I'm sure if you feel righteous, those tweets lambasting your opponents must feel good, but I hardly think this is professional.

And then I'm missing any exploration of underlying issues. There's just nothing there. There's an assertion from the mother that a child was persistent about being a boy at an age when children have not yet developed enough to understand sex. This is really basic child psychology knowledge, because children reaching this understanding is one of the milestones of early child development.

The reason why the early cohort is diagnosed with gender dysphoria around four, five years old is because a disruption happens at that development stage (which children typically reach age three and four).

So if I hear a parent saying my child had a persistent opposite-sex identity age two, I'm hearing something that is incongruent with the well documented and incredibly well researched stages of child development. So I would want to explore that, not take it as gospel.

But that lack of professional curiosity seems par for the course.

NecessaryScene · 02/10/2021 19:47

This is really basic child psychology knowledge, because children reaching this understanding is one of the milestones of early child development.

I do worry about some of the upcoming generation - what happens to that stage of development when a child's parents and teachers are trying to actively conceal what sex is?

Leafstamp · 02/10/2021 19:50

Totally agree with you Charlie

There were too many things wrong with the content for me to write about them all.

The tweet about a doctor being investigated even though patient was happy?!

Somehow I don’t think GMC guidelines for doctor conduct is based solely on a few patients saying they were happy with it.

Hell, many Dignitas patients would have been happy with Harold Shipman as their doctor. With apologies for the flippancy on such a sensitive matter.

KohlaParasanda · 02/10/2021 23:00

So if I hear a parent saying my child had a persistent opposite-sex identity age two, I'm hearing something that is incongruent with the well documented and incredibly well researched stages of child development. So I would want to explore that, not take it as gospel.

I agree. If this were true, it would mean that the standard child development textbooks would have to be rewritten.

Signalbox · 04/10/2021 16:33

SJ made closing submissions today on behalf of the GMC.

@mpts_hearing tweets here...
twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1444943877698424834

@tribunaltweets have not yet written up today's tweets.

IS will make closing submissions tomorrow on behalf of HW.

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FlibbertyGiblets · 04/10/2021 17:31

Thank you Signalbox.

Signalbox · 06/10/2021 11:49

Today we are due to hear the legal advice which will be given by the legally qualified chair of the committee. it seems that the parties have received the proposed legal advice in advance and are being given an opportunity to comment on it.

After the legal advice has been agreed the hearing should be at the point where the committee goes into private to decide on whether or not each head of charge is found proved or not proved.

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Signalbox · 06/10/2021 11:58

.

Helen Webberley
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Signalbox · 06/10/2021 12:02

If any of the facts are found proved (and it would be incredible if they weren't) the tribunal will move to stage two...

Stage two: impairment
The tribunal considers if the doctor’s current fitness to practise medicine is impaired – essentially, whether the doctor is safe to continue working in medicine and treating patients.

Its decision is based on the facts found proved by the tribunal and any further relevant evidence presented.

If the tribunal finds the doctor’s fitness to practise is not impaired, the hearing won’t continue to stage three. The tribunal may decide to place a warning on the doctor’s registration in this case. A warning does not restrict a doctor’s registration or right to continue treating patients.

If the tribunal finds the doctor’s fitness to practise is impaired, the hearing continues to stage three.

www.mpts-uk.org/witnesses/witness-guide-to-hearings/how-a-hearing-works

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Melroses · 06/10/2021 12:23

Thank you

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 06/10/2021 13:51

gosh, its like the script for a film.

a scary one

FlibbertyGiblets · 06/10/2021 14:24

Thank you, again.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/10/2021 14:49

On a slight tangent, I can't express how huge the news is that MPTS found against Prof. Justin Stebbings on his inappropriate treatment of patients. He has been described as God and has a significant reputation for treating cancer patients.

Prof Stebbing - nicknamed 'God' because of his pioneering work - is a cancer medicine and oncology professor at Imperial College London and has a private practice in Harley Street.

A MPTS (Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service) tribunal heard of his "international reputation" for innovative cancer treatment, which has led to wealthy patients from around the globe turning to him in the hope of extending their lives.

They've included New Zealand multi-millionaire Sir Douglas Myers and the actor Lynda Bellingham.

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/960334

SpindleWhirl · 06/10/2021 15:37

[quote EmbarrassingAdmissions]On a slight tangent, I can't express how huge the news is that MPTS found against Prof. Justin Stebbings on his inappropriate treatment of patients. He has been described as God and has a significant reputation for treating cancer patients.

Prof Stebbing - nicknamed 'God' because of his pioneering work - is a cancer medicine and oncology professor at Imperial College London and has a private practice in Harley Street.

A MPTS (Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service) tribunal heard of his "international reputation" for innovative cancer treatment, which has led to wealthy patients from around the globe turning to him in the hope of extending their lives.

They've included New Zealand multi-millionaire Sir Douglas Myers and the actor Lynda Bellingham.

www.medscape.com/viewarticle/960334[/quote]
This is a very hard read. Thank you so much for the link. I've registered so I can read it in batches.

I could cry, I really could. And I'm furious.

But what a very significant precedent this is around informed consent, doctor-patient relationships, 'god' doctors, and other staff raising concerns over and over again, for where we are in October 2021.

And the civil suits for damages are already live, I see.

Signalbox · 06/10/2021 18:34

Looks as if the hearing is unlikely to finish in the allotted time.

The legal advice is contained in this thread by @mpts_hearing.
I've copied the legal advice tweets for those who are blocked.

twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1445667536175988744

We're back!
Chair: Thank you for your patience. I'll now read out the advice, firstly on burden of proof - rests on GMC, each para of allegation must be considered differently. The standard of proof is the balance of probabilities. A fact will be proved if the evidence

Chair: establishes, in the view of the Tribunal, that it's more likely than not to be true, or to have happened. standard of proof takes into account the probabilities that Dr W acted in particular way alleged in any of the charges.

Chair: A probability is extent to which sthing is likely to be the case. If an event is inherently improbable, it may take better evidence to persuade judge that it's happened than would be required if the event were mere commonplace. Does not mean a higher standard of proof.

Chair: There are no. of words on allegation which warrant interpretation, one is 'fail'. This alleges Dr W was under duty to do something she did not do. Tribunal will have to consider if she did not do it, if so without good reason.

Chair: May be simple issue but defence may challenge. there is some case law existing on this issue, important to remember not trying negligence, this is not introducing negligence test, to reflect that there may be more than one recognised body of opinion.

Chair: Bolam Test as, it's sufficient if a Dr follows a practice adopted by a rec body of medical opinion. If there is such a body of med opinion & it's followed, then the med pract will not be liable for any adverse outcome despite the existence of another med practice

Chair: that would have a different course which could/would have produced better outcome. It's not enough to show that there is a body of competent profess opinion which considers that there was wrong decision, if there also exists a body of profess opinion, equally competent,

Chair: which supports decision as reasonable. Differences of opinion & practice exist in the medical profession. Seldom one answer exclusive of all others to problems of profess judgment. Court may prefer one opinion to the other, but that's no basis for conclusion of negligence.

Chair: Bolitho (?) In action involving clinical judgment there' s 2 step procedure to determine the question of alleged medical negligence, whether the medical practitioner acted in accordance with a practice accepted as proper...by a responsible body of medical opinion...

Chair: whether the practice survives Bolitho scrutiny as being responsible or logical. That case law doesn't detract from standard of care whichTribunal should apply. standard is that of the reasonably competent GP with a special interest in gender care/ sexual health.

Chair: Expert witnesses give evidence, opinions to assist on matters of a specialist kind which are not of common knowledge. As with any other witness, it's the Tribunal’s task to weigh upevidence of the expert which includes evidence of opinion

Chair: & to decide what evidence they accept & what they do not. factors capable of undermining the reliability of expert opinion or detracting from credibility or impartiality may assist Tribunal in evaluating & assessing expert evidence.

Chair: completeness of the information available to the expert, whether the expert took account of all relevant information in arriving at the opinion, which includes information as to the context of any facts to which the opinion relates

Chair: The GMC & Dr W rely on hearsay evidence. Documentary evidence where the witness has not been called to give evidence. Whilst the evidence has been properly admitted, the Tribunal should consider...

Chair: There's been no opportunity to see the witness’s account tested under X-exam, eg as to accuracy, truthfulness, ambiguity or misperception or how witness would have responded to this process Weight of this evidence is a matter for the tribunal.

Chair: Lost or missing material could put Dr W at a serious disadvantage, in that docs & other materials which she'd have wished to deploy aren't before the tribunal. Tribunal should take this possible prejudice to Dr into account when considering whether GMC has proven

Chair: Like adults, young people aged 16, 17 are presumed to have sufficient capacity to decide on their own medical treatment, unless there's significant evidence to suggest otherwise. Children under the age of 16 can consent to their own treatment

Chair: if they're believed to have enough intelligence/ competence/understanding to appreciate what's involved in their trtment. This is being Gillick competent. A person lacks capacity if their mind is impaired or disturbed, which means they're unable to make a decision

Chair: Person must be given all of the info about what the trtment involves, including benefits & risks & side effects, whether there are reasonable alternative trments, & what will happen if treatment does not go ahead

Chair: If pts have capacity to make decisions for themselves, basic model applies, The Dr & Pt make an assessment of the pt’s condition, taking into account the medical history, views, experience, knowledge.

Chair: Dr uses specialist knowledge & experience & clinical judgement, & Pt’s views & understanding, to identify which investigations or treatments are likely to result in overall benefit for the pt. The Dr explains the options to the pt, setting out potential benefits,

Chair: risks, burdens, side effects of each option, including option to have no treatment. Dr may rec particular option which they believe to be best for the pt, but they must not put pressure on the pt to accept

Chair: Lord Scarman said, “nor has our law ever treated the child as other than a person with capabilities & rights recognised by law. When applying these conclusions to contraceptive advice & treatment be borne in mind that there's much to be understood by a girl under 16

Chair: if she's to have legal capacity to consent to treatment. Not enough that she should understand the nature of the advice given, must also have a suff maturity to understand what's involved. There's moral & family Q, especially relationship with her parents

Chair:long-term problems ass with emotional impact of pregnancy& termination & the risks to health of sexual intercourse at her age, risks which contraception may diminish but not eliminate. Dr will have to satisfy that sh's able to appraise these factors before he can safely

Chair: proceedon basis has at law capacity to consent to contraceptives. Proper course will be, as the guidance, seek to persuade the girl to bring parents into consultation & if she refuses, not to prescribe contraceptive treatment unless satisfied that her circumstances

Chair: are such that he ought to proceed without parental knowledge & consent. When considering capacity, there is also the issue as to whether the pt retainsnecessary capacity in the context of their GD &
other comorbid conditions.

Chair: Bell v Tavi in court of appeal judgment, it was held policy & practice under consideration in this case requires informed consent of child & parents before Tavi refers to the Trusts, again before either Trust prescribesPBs & before prescription of X sex hormones.

Chair: That is the regime under the NHS Specification which set up the Portman & Tavi clinic. But Dr W’s prescribing was not under NHS. She was working in a private capacity. Lord Scarman considered parental rights in Gillick

Chair: As Lord Scarman stated, that was a case about parental rights to determine whether a child who had capacity will have medical treatment terminates. Not a case about whether a parent of a child who lacks capacity or who is in agreement with the treatment proposed

Chair: may consent to that trtment on child’s behalf. Gillick was considered in AB v Tavi. Case where court was considering whether parent could consent to the ongoing treatment of PBs for a child who although competent, had not given consent b/c of lack of time or opportunity.

Chair: in the present case, the parent & the child are in agreement. Therefore, the issue here is whether the parents’ ability to consent disappears once the child achieves Gillick compt in respect of the decision even where both the parents & child agree. In my view it does not.

Chair: In present case, in light of Bell decision, & the issues around Gk competence explained in that judgment, it hasn't been possible to ascertain whether the child is competent. In this case 2 options. If the child is Gk competent, she has not objected to her parent

Chair: giving consent on her behalf. As such, a Dr can rely on the consent given by her parents. Alternatively, the child is not Gillick competent. In that case, her parents can consent on her behalf.

Chair: in my view, whether or not XY is Gk competent to make the decision about PBs, her parents retain the parental right to consent to that treatment.

Chair: AB V Tavi, is there a special category of medical treatment requiring court authorisation, and do PBs fall within it? The Court determined that there was not. Follows that a parent can give consent to GAH if has not objected or if the child is not Gillick competent.

Chair: Dr W’s defence to alleged failure to inform Frosts of her suspension. I understand her case to be, she was no longer under an obligation to do so as she had ceased prescribing for Frosts before her suspension & she did not know that she was obliged to inform Frosts

Chair: Concerning matters she allegedly submitted to the IOT about being a member of the RCGP. Para 20 concerning her alleged failure to inform Frosts that she had been suspended. By the time tribunal will be considering dishonesty in paragraph 14 or 20, it will already have

Chair: decided whether info submitted to the IOT in para 10 was untrue & if Dr W knew she was required to inform Frosts. If the Tribunal find that the info was not untrue or was not required to inform Frosts, the respective allegation of dishonesty does not proceed.

Chair: Where it is alleged that Dr is dishonest, it's for the GMC to prove that dishonesty. It's not for the Dr to prove that he or she was honest. Burden of proof remains throughout the hearing on the GMC.

Chair: tribunal should determine whether the Dr's conduct, as it has found it to be was honest or dishonest by the standards of ordinary decent people. Dr W appears before the tribunal as someone of good character. She has not been convicted of any offence of dishonesty.

Chair: That is an important matter. It is something which the Tribunal should take into account in 2 ways. She has given evidence. Her good character ispositive feature which tribunal shld take into account in her favour when considering if it accepts what Dr W told us.

Chair: Secondly the fact that she has not offended in the past may make it less likely that she acted as the GMC alleges. What importance the tribunal attaches to this are for the tribunal to decide. The Tribunal may take account of everything it has heard about Dr W.

Chair: That's the legal advice I offer my colleagues gentleman & Dr W. I know we have spent some of day discussing legal advice, both IS & SJ have had input. Any other matters you want to raise?

SJ: just one matter, it was issue as to whether in context of capacity & or competence the issue of if tribunal need to consider may not have ben co-morbidities that may affect that, and account needed to be taken of that in consenting.

Chair: Thank you, I thought I had dealt with this - (reads back over previous) this was designed to deal with if he was able to give consent because of issues of capacity, that is the purpose of that para
SJ: Hearing you re-state it I am satisfied with that.

IS: I was going to raise same matter, notice para 20 'or other co-morbid additions' had entered, these weren't in earlier drafts. Strictly speaking as we discussed one does not talk about GD as being something relevant to co-morbidity & other matters we've talked about ADHD

IS: are not generally considered to be co-morbidities, more the language than the issue, I know you wouldn't want to cause upset
Chair: You are right, I think my language is not sufficiently skilled in this area, tribunal will have to consider capacity

Chair: where it is alleged that Dr W did not consider capacity and if relevant Pt did in fact have capacity notwithstanding other.
IS: I understand the point you've made now, of course there is no evidence Pt lacked capacity, no allegation of this,

IS: just of if Dr W assessed it, and q of recording it.
Chair: That's right. Thank you, this means that we're now in position to retire to consider our determination in relation to stage 1 of the hearing.

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Signalbox · 14/10/2021 12:42

So today is the last (booked) day of the hearing and it looks as if the committee have not reached the end of stage 1 (i.e. they have not yet decided on whether or not the heads of charge have been found proved or not proved).

This is a frustrating place for the hearing to stop. It means that we will not hear the decision for some time. They have said that "at this stage no further dates have been listed and we will issue a further update when new dates are set."

If it goes to stage 2 it will be ages before they find new dates that are acceptable for both parties plus the committee.

Helen Webberley
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Signalbox · 14/10/2021 16:10

The parties have been given dates for the announcement of the determination (22nd April) and commencement of the next stage of the hearing (6th June). The defence are not happy and have submitted that this case should be prioritised over other cases that have not yet started due to the length of time that this case will have been running (4 years!) which, it is submitted, is unfair on HW and the trans community are also keen to know the outcome. (And they are not the only ones!)

Helen Webberley
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Signalbox · 14/10/2021 17:34

The above dates may not be the final dates. There is now further discussion around the possibility of handing down the determination on 28th January and possibly for the hearing to resume for 2 weeks in April. So the dates are not yet settled but it will be determination in either Jan or April and hearing to be resumed by June at the latest.

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Hoardasurass · 14/10/2021 23:48

Does the fact that they are setting 2 lots of dates ie for decision and then the 2nd stage hint at the decision or is this just incase its needed?

Signalbox · 15/10/2021 12:11

@Hoardasurass

Does the fact that they are setting 2 lots of dates ie for decision and then the 2nd stage hint at the decision or is this just incase its needed?
If it was just clinical failings or dishonesty charges then it would be possible for the hearing to finish at the end of stage 1 (if none of the heads of charge were found proved). In this situation it would be unlikely that the committee would give any indication to the parties how their deliberations are going so the dates might be booked "just in case".

However, because one of the heads of charges relates to HW's criminal conviction (which afaik could not be found to be not proved because the conviction is a fact and you cannot "go behind" a criminal conviction in a regulatory hearing) stage 2 in this case will definitely take place even if the committee were to find all the other heads of charge not proved.

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Signalbox · 06/12/2021 11:06

Update here on HW case. High Court hearing began last week for extension to interim order of suspension. Submissions made in relation to lifting suspension and replacing with conditions.

Hearing continues today...

twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1467598563245015042

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Signalbox · 06/12/2021 11:14

twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1467807803620397068

High Court hearing: HHJ Pearce (J) is sitting on the matter of the extension of the supension of Dr Helen Webberley (HW)'s license to practice as a doctor, while her tribunal is still in process.

Tim Buley QC (TB) is representing HW. Laura Barbour (LB) represents
@gmcuk

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

We are permitted to live tweet.

Counsel have submitted additional submissions.

TB - HW wants to put undertakings before the court. The GMc as applicant has failed to make their case for continued suspension.

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

Para 7 of written submission: HW's undertakings developed without GMC input or request.

  1. She will follow the WPATH guidelines standards of care 7th edition and Endocrine Society (ES) guidelines, the ones she is alleged to have breached, so meets the charges re Pts A, B & C.

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

Public interest can be met through the ES guidelines. She meets the criteria for treating adults, prepubertal and adolescents.

My client accepts no PBs for prebubertal children. She has never treated prepubertal children,

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

ES accepts puberty blockers for adolescent (after they first exhibit pubertal changes).

Adolescents including under 16 year old - prescribe gradually increasing hormones after using a multi disciplinary team (MDT). HW will use an MDT
She will keep a log, available for the GMC.

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

If necessary for public protection, she will give an undertaking that she will not prescribe any medication.

It is offered if required, so she can at least begin the process of making a return to practice eg training and speaking at conferences.

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

TB refers to LB's submission. As in the case of Hue (sp?), LB doesn't dispute in principle that undertakings can be relevant. Relevant factors are the same factors as the IOT including gravity, nature of risk, (too fast) and for protection of the public and the public interest.

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

Fyi - IOT is
@the_mpts
Interim Order Tribunal.
mpts-uk.org
Interim orders tribunals - how they work
Interim orders tribunals decide if a doctor's practice should be restricted while an investigation takes place. Find out how they work and when we use them.

TB refers to para 4 of LB's submission that the measures in place have to cover all the concerns, and must be enforecable.

This is wring. Not all concerns will be capable of justifying a suspension. The relevant concerns must be sufficiently weighty to be addressed.

The reasons for suspension must be proportionate. It's been 4 1/2 years. GMC ask for another 8 months suspension.
Most of the concerns re Pts A, B & C do not justify that period of suspension. Using initials (prof college) after her name is not serious enough "for the birds".

Undertakings to a court are enforceable as a contempt of court. It may be less convenient to enforce. TB doesn't see why such udnertakings are not workable.

HW will keep a log of treatments. It would be very serious not to do so. TB notes the extraordinary length of time.

LB - in offering undertaking, HW tries to present the case as a narrow one about clinical concerns.

One is prescribing - and a complete blanket ban on prescribing.

Much wider issues.

  1. the clincial undertakings don't go far enough
  2. the issues are much wider
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Signalbox · 06/12/2021 11:23

The Helen Webberley Tribunal
@tribunaltweets

The hearing information sheet specifies the Pt B allegation 3 d iv - a faure to make proper enquiries on the pt's presentation in terms of puberty and tanner stages.

This case is complex. Concern abt whether HW hads the same understanding about what is required by the regulator

How can the High Court monitor in a meaningful way the undertakings?

J - no power or role in monitoring. Difference in interpretaion may make policing difficult.

Enforceability requires identification of a breach and then action taken because of that breach.

Although the undertakings taken from a prepared bank, It won't be possible for the ct to know they were being met.

LB said TB said she would get training and speak at conferences to prepare for her return. GMC advise those things are available to HW now.

The submissions in writing prepared by TB was provided at 4pm on Friday so no blanme at one parties' door or the other.

LB Para 9 of her submission - specific allegations 2a i & ii and 4 and 6 that HW was in breach of these guidelines.

In certian circumstamces, agreed undertakings (u/t) could be relevant - maybe where a doctor has two areas of practice, not to work on one area under investigation

LB - the question of sufficiency to address all the concerns - taken sometimes individually and cumulatively the allegations are so serious that suspension is essentially.

Enforceability - been a breach? What can we do about it?

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