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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Webberley

978 replies

Signalbox · 05/07/2021 11:59

Looks like Helem Webberley's substantive case has finally been listed for 26th July 2021

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

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Thread gallery
43
oldwomanwhoruns · 29/09/2021 09:05

Good god "Are you suggesting there's another method of treatment that doesn't include hormone therapy?"

YES. Try leaving the children alone. Or a bit of non-affermative counselling.

FFS.

FlyingOink · 29/09/2021 18:20

@oldwomanwhoruns

Good god "Are you suggesting there's another method of treatment that doesn't include hormone therapy?"

YES. Try leaving the children alone. Or a bit of non-affermative counselling.

FFS.

Using the scientific method to determine whether that is a better approach should be easy, right? If trans people have always existed, and any recent increase in numbers is attributed entirely to increased visibility, then the same percentage of people would have been trans throughout all of history. So if no treatment results in a supposed 50% of this group committing suicide, those deaths should be fairly straightforward to count up. That would mean trying to work out from previous coroner's reports which suicides were trans people unable to access treatment that didn't exist yet. If the numbers work out, then it proves a lack of access to treatment resulted in suicide. If the numbers are much lower, it proves that back when there was no treatment available whatsoever for gender dysphoria, sufferers found alternative ways to cope. You'd need to remove those people who were unable to live freely as homosexuals, because that would confound things, and homosexuals make up a large percentage of people who have dysphoria about gender roles and gendered presentation. I'd fall into that latter category, for example, and I'm not trans.
Signalbox · 29/09/2021 18:43

Wed 29th Sept

@tribunal tweets
Thread 1 twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1443123701948588034

Thread 2
twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1443205299997925382

Alternative tweeting from...
@mpts_hearing
twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1443127583495888897

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Signalbox · 29/09/2021 18:48

Seems that all the evidence has now been heard. There is something going on tomorrow morning in relation to Pt A (poss some info in relation to Pt A being made public?) After that final submissions will be made.

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Signalbox · 29/09/2021 19:05

Interesting that when they are trying to defend giving testosterone to a 12 year old suddenly long term puberty blockers are no longer a "harmless pause"...

twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1443160272206712834

Helen Webberley
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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/09/2021 21:16

There were some jaw dropping things (again) today:

Dr B: Yes, those guidelines are not laws written in stone, we are Drs to help relieve distress. Dr Klink made a joke about me, but I see people who are in severe distress every day, who self harm & want to kill themselves, lets not forget that, hormone treatment does relieve that
Dr B: & in some Pts self harm does stop with hormone treatment. I don't agree with Dr Kierans saying well to do a bit of relaxation to relieve your distress, that's not going to help a Pt with GD at all, I found that shocking.
+++
Dr B: There is some discussion as to if that should've based on the gender someone identifies with or the gender assigned at birth, there is some disagreement amongst peadds endos. They want to know the nitty gritty of every physical parameter,
Dr B: but what is more important: that the Pt who is suffering from severe GD V the Pt is a cm or 2 less tall, I know what I think is most important. We don't do these things in our service, some endos do, some do not. There is no absolute necessity to do this
Dr B: there is no evidence anywhere that doing so is better for the Pt. we all know the longer the Pt is on blockers, if this Pt was kept on the blockers for 5 yrs I would've had concerns for their bone health.
+++

SJ: I've not put to you issue of bones scan, but issue of examination, BP & psychological exam as being necessary
Dr B: I would say height, weight, medical problems yes, psychological issues absolutely not. Any Dr working in this field can determine if someone is trans,
Dr B: and if they need homrmones. I want to explain to you and tribunal there is significant overlap between 12 year old and 16 year old and the assessment and treatment is the same
+++

Dr B: I really do not agree every single thing needs to be looked at, there's no evidence in literature that putting Pt through, not hoops, but other assessment for ASD of ADHD that that will influence outcome. I have many Pts 16+ with ADHD, some on medication and some not,
Dr B: I have many patients on autistic spectrum. I do not think seriously that this impacts on treatment, its is very straightforward and not nearly as complex as someone people believe it may be

+++
Dr B: we work with models & diagnoses. Diagnosis of pubertal 12, 13, 14 year old are exactly same as 16+, we heard from Dr K that in Belgium they're moving toward pubertal adolescents, we know that pre-pubertal adolescents do wonder & ask questions,
Dr B: but once puberty sets in and it becomes really strong, it will be very cruel to not treat those young adolescents
IS: I want to be clear, so one aspect is diagnosis is no different for +16 and -16?
Dr B: That's right
+++

IS: When you see 16yo's do you discuss history prior to 16?
Dr B: We always have ask, "how did your gender develop?" And they can say 'when I was a girl, only had male friends, only played with male toys', then there's always - which is crucial, you have to have parental history
IS: When you see 16yo's do you discuss history prior to 16?
Dr B: We always have ask, "how did your gender develop?" And they can say 'when I was a girl, only had male friends, only played with male toys', then there's always - which is crucial, you have to have parental history
Dr B: Lets not forget we've all been young & when you see Pt who is 16+ or 83 I see all of those, their narratives are remarkably similar. Having seen so many 'blueprints' it's literally as straightforward as that.
dr B: We are experienced enough as clinicians to tell when a Pt is telling you porkies, you can tell in millisecond.
+++

TM: As an adult therapist/Dr do you see issues in adults that could have been circumvented by earlier inventions?
Dr B: yes there are a lot of problems, I'm sure the tribunal has heard some, the simplest is if your body grows in the gender you don't identify with, you will need surgery for that, early intervention means no need for surgery.
Dr B: It also a big expense to the health service to fix that. Once you block a trans girl very early, the skin of the penis doesn't grow much more, sometimes it's not possible to turn it into a vagina, you may need to use part of the bowel,
Dr B: nothing is straightforward in this case, but it is straightforward that young ppl, where the GD becomes so enormous & all-consuming it happens with adults too where either they kill themselves or transition.
Dr B: The distress doesn't go away after doing a bit of relaxation or CBT of course not!
TM: You say its not complicated, when a Dr has a young trans individual & they are weighing up risks or benefits or early intervention, its important to take all aspects into account?
Dr B: I think that's an impossible task, I don't think anybody would be able to do that, ultimately goes down what Dr Brian Ferguson said when I took over centre, he said at end of day you could talk for hours, look at every aspect, but at the end of the day
+++

mammajustkilledagnat · 30/09/2021 10:06

I just cannot get my head around the thinking that creating surgically facsimiles of penises and vaginas is a good thing to do to a child. It's all just absolutely nuts. I've been following this whole debate under various names for the last 8 years and it still shocks me that educated professionals appear so blasé and happy with this course of action being taken.

Signalbox · 30/09/2021 10:10

Seems that Pt A and Pt A's mother have given permission for their evidence to be referred to in closing submission which will avoid the need for the tribunal to go into private session whilst closing submissions are made. The Anonymity of Pt A and Pt A's mother will still be preserved. IS will read a summary of this evidence now.

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EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/09/2021 10:17

@mammajustkilledagnat

I just cannot get my head around the thinking that creating surgically facsimiles of penises and vaginas is a good thing to do to a child. It's all just absolutely nuts. I've been following this whole debate under various names for the last 8 years and it still shocks me that educated professionals appear so blasé and happy with this course of action being taken.
It's distressing and interesting.

It's plain that a number of clinicians in the field have a conflict of interest because it's substantially the whole of their social valorisation, their professional status, and their income. Plus, they get to be adored and praised as saviours and literally life-saving.

Other professionals, with no skin in the game, I've no idea what's happening. I'm thinking specifically of the Science-Based Medicine farrago of nonsense where they are merrily en route to destroying their legacy.

Contentious areas end up with many excellent people walking away and not engaging. This leads the literature that does exist open to misrepresentation.

Signalbox · 30/09/2021 10:27

Short and sweet... Basically Pt A thought they were a boy from 2.5 years old. Pt A was traumatised when made to wear a dress. Pt A was suicidal and wanted to go on T so they could go through puberty at the same time as their friends. Pt A didn't want to have a double mastectomy because then people would know they are trans.

Defence case is now closed. Closing submissions will be made on Monday.

@tribunal tweets
twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1443491495697387524

@mpts_hearing
twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1443495763233886214

Helen Webberley
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CharlieParley · 30/09/2021 10:28

That transcript, ItsAllGoingToBeFine! Thanks for posting it.

Astonishing ambivalence displayed here to basic principles of medical care. Patients are all the same, no difference between a 12 and 16 year-old, obfuscation when discussing patients - in addition to the better-researched cohort diagnosed in early childhood, we now have a much higher percentage of children who only present as teens, many post-adolescence. The Dr cannot be duped, would know in a milli-second, but asks questions he or she has no way of verifying. And we know many patients rehearse the best lines and there's a lot of resources online telling them what to say.

And that complete lack of understanding of the autistic teen. Staggering. When you talk to parents of autistic teens, they'll tell you why they're terrified of the doctrine of gender identity and its adoption by healthcare professionals - these teens struggle with sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes even more than many other children. They are uncomfortably aware (especially girls) that they don't conform to those stereotypes and they look for the fault in themselves. And gender identity offers them a quasi-logical way out.

Any doctor who fails to understand that they're in danger of medicalising a child going through the normal phases of an autistic child's development should not be anywhere near them.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/09/2021 10:34

The Dr cannot be duped, would know in a milli-second, but asks questions he or she has no way of verifying. And we know many patients rehearse the best lines and there's a lot of resources online telling them what to say.

Whenever I read about this, I always think of the marked shift in Dr Barrett's opinion of whether or not male prisoners would transition to gain concessions or access to a women's prison.

2009 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370661-2009-case-of-a-judge-ordering-an-intact-male-rapist-into-a-female-prison-because-he-had-a-GRC?pg=2

2015 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410111-Canada-Trans-woman-sent-to-womens-prison-for-sexually-molesting-her-3-year-old-daughter?msgid=82250183

merrymouse · 30/09/2021 10:38

Pt A didn't want to have a double mastectomy because then people would know they are trans.

I’m confused by this. It sounds as though Pt A hadn’t come to terms with the limits of hormone treatment and surgery.

CharlieParley · 30/09/2021 10:42

Thank you EmbarrassingAdmissions that's a good reminder!

Leafstamp · 02/10/2021 07:20

Summary of Patient A testimony here:

www.gendergp.com/summary-of-patient-a-and-mrs-as-testimony/

Like the rest of this case it’s horrifying.

Datun · 02/10/2021 09:03

Dear god it is. And no explanation, whatsoever of why this child doesn't want to be a girl. Other than they have a 'cross sex gender identity'. With absolutely no explanation of what that is. (Of course). From aged 2!

Apparent suicide threats. Wanting, and appearing to believe, that they will go through puberty as a boy. And a driving force being that they don't want mastectomy scars in case when they take off their clothes people think they're trans. What about all the rest of their female biological functions??

And all of this, if I'm reading properly, with a consultation that lasted an hour!

Is this patient one who was put forward by DW? Or is there another reason for this being the one giving testimony. Because if this is the best example DW can come up with, then dear God.

NecessaryScene · 02/10/2021 09:05

I've just archived that before they change their mind.

Signalbox · 02/10/2021 14:33

Is this patient one who was put forward by DW? Or is there another reason for this being the one giving testimony. Because if this is the best example DW can come up with, then dear God.

It’s hard to know the exact sequence of events but piecing things together it looks as if a complaint was made by GIDS in relation to Pt A and this is why part of the GMC’s case against HW is that Pt A’s treatment was inappropriate.

However because Pt A is actually happy with the treatment and the outcome of treatment they are acting as a witness for the defence. They are essentially saying look no harm came to me so the treatment must’ve been correct.

I suspect this is why the GMC didn’t want to question Pt A because they didn’t want to give them the opportunity to sing HW’s praises. SJ said something along the lines of not giving Pt A a platform at some point.

In the next stage of the hearing (once the heads of charge have all been found proved or not proved) I suspect the panel will see multiple testimonials from patients who are happy with their treatment by her and profess that she has saved their lives but that would not be relevant at this stage.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/10/2021 14:55

I suspect this is why the GMC didn’t want to question Pt A because they didn’t want to give them the opportunity to sing HW’s praises. SJ said something along the lines of not giving Pt A a platform at some point.

There's been a lot of this on the defence's side. They all sing Webberley's praises, she is the saviour of trans youth etc.

Datun · 02/10/2021 15:36

@Signalbox

Is this patient one who was put forward by DW? Or is there another reason for this being the one giving testimony. Because if this is the best example DW can come up with, then dear God.

It’s hard to know the exact sequence of events but piecing things together it looks as if a complaint was made by GIDS in relation to Pt A and this is why part of the GMC’s case against HW is that Pt A’s treatment was inappropriate.

However because Pt A is actually happy with the treatment and the outcome of treatment they are acting as a witness for the defence. They are essentially saying look no harm came to me so the treatment must’ve been correct.

I suspect this is why the GMC didn’t want to question Pt A because they didn’t want to give them the opportunity to sing HW’s praises. SJ said something along the lines of not giving Pt A a platform at some point.

In the next stage of the hearing (once the heads of charge have all been found proved or not proved) I suspect the panel will see multiple testimonials from patients who are happy with their treatment by her and profess that she has saved their lives but that would not be relevant at this stage.

One of the most disturbing parts of this, to me, is the strong possibility that puberty blockers keep these children in a childlike state. So you've got a child being quite happy at still being a child, despite their chronological age.

Their testimony as to how they feel, is therefore very suspect in my opinion.

They don't know, what they don't know.

Signalbox · 02/10/2021 16:20

Their testimony as to how they feel, is therefore very suspect in my opinion.

Totally. And they are still only 17 years old and may not feel the same in 5 or 10 years from now. I can’t really see how Pt A’s feelings are relevant at all. Either the treatment was appropriate or it wasn’t. There will always be people who support the actions of bad doctors simply because they were not personally harmed by them (or in this case do not perceive themselves to have been harmed). It must be quite rare though to have a case where the GMC are saying treatment was inappropriate but the patient appears as a defence witness.

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EmbarrassingAdmissions · 02/10/2021 17:36

It must be quite rare though to have a case where the GMC are saying treatment was inappropriate but the patient appears as a defence witness.

Not really. Whenever there have been doctors with a popular message, prescribing off-label or outside guidelines, they've had large numbers of patients turning out for them or wanting to give evidence/testimonies on their behalf.

Off the top of my head: Andrew Wakefield and the anti-MMR message come to mind; Gordon Skinner and hypothyroidism; there have been several complaints about Sarah Myhill's protocol for ME/CFS (just a 1 year ban, iirc).

Datun · 02/10/2021 18:15

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

It must be quite rare though to have a case where the GMC are saying treatment was inappropriate but the patient appears as a defence witness.

Not really. Whenever there have been doctors with a popular message, prescribing off-label or outside guidelines, they've had large numbers of patients turning out for them or wanting to give evidence/testimonies on their behalf.

Off the top of my head: Andrew Wakefield and the anti-MMR message come to mind; Gordon Skinner and hypothyroidism; there have been several complaints about Sarah Myhill's protocol for ME/CFS (just a 1 year ban, iirc).

Okay, so it means they are quite used to seeing this sort of testimony from the defence's viewpoint.
Signalbox · 02/10/2021 18:27

Not really. Whenever there have been doctors with a popular message, prescribing off-label or outside guidelines, they've had large numbers of patients turning out for them or wanting to give evidence/testimonies on their behalf.

Off the top of my head: Andrew Wakefield and the anti-MMR message come to mind; Gordon Skinner and hypothyroidism; there have been several complaints about Sarah Myhill's protocol for ME/CFS (just a 1 year ban, iirc).

Well you could say that 3 cases was still a rarity considering the 100s of cases the mpts must hear each year. My understanding is that most cases that involve clinical failings stem from a patient complaint.

Also I don’t know much about those cases but did patients give witness evidence in the fact finding stage as Pt A did? Or were their testimonies included during stage 3 of the hearings when they were considering sanction?

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Signalbox · 02/10/2021 19:01

Okay, so it means they are quite used to seeing this sort of testimony from the defence's viewpoint.

I've worked in a regulatory setting (not mpts) for 8 years and I don't think I've ever seen a case where a patient who is the subject of one of one of the allegations is also a witness for the defence. This is why I suspect it's rare.

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