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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Webberley

978 replies

Signalbox · 05/07/2021 11:59

Looks like Helem Webberley's substantive case has finally been listed for 26th July 2021

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

OP posts:
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43
OldCrone · 30/07/2021 15:05

I think there's a common misconception that kids are somehow being misdiagnosed or being encouraged to be trans. I don't think doctors or psychologists are rushing to diagnose anyone as trans. Quite the opposite.

It seems that self-diagnosis is all that's needed at GenderGP.

At GenderGP, we believe that the person is the expert in their own gender experience. We combine this personal knowledge and insight with our expertise in providing gender-affirmative care, to help you find the best way forward in a safe and accessible way.

Although we thoroughly believe everyone, cis or trans, should have therapy support available to them in their lives, we do not believe that ‘compulsory’ counselling or psychotherapy is of benefit to anybody. We certainly do not believe in putting people through lengthy assessments in order to validate their gender. By the time you come to us, you will have a better understanding about your gender than anyone, our role is to help you to begin – or continue – your journey.

www.gendergp.com/gendergps-approach-to-assessments-yes-you-are-trans-enough/

OldCrone · 30/07/2021 15:07

People are spreading lies, basically.

Yes they are. Some of them are even convincing children that it's possible to change sex.

FloralBunting · 30/07/2021 15:07

QED.

The evidence is crystal clear. If you support Webberley's methods, there are only two reasonable conclusions - you are either, sadly, completely taken in by the outrageous lying, or you are knowingly complicit in the scandal.

R0wantrees · 30/07/2021 15:09

The evidence is crystal clear. If you support Webberley's methods, there are only two reasonable conclusions - you are either, sadly, completely taken in by the outrageous lying, or you are knowingly complicit in the scandal.

This ^^

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 30/07/2021 15:15

Nefelibata33 can you help me understand what leads to a diagnosis of being transgender in a child?

I've done quite a lot of reading around this, I'm an HCP and work in adult sexual health - and AFAICS there is no objective measurement. There is no consistency of signs or "symptoms" between trans and NB individuals.

Being trans and NB appears to be an entirely subjective feeling which cannot be measured, quantified or reproduced.

So, how does one make a diagnosis? Or does diagnosis simply mean "accepts the patient's say so"?

Is there a differential diagnosis to demarcate between gender dysphoria, childhood trauma, neurodiversity, mental health conditions, an emerging sexuality and normal teenage discomfort about pubertal bodily changes?

Even if puberty blockers are safe and appropriate treatments for children with gender issues (which I do not believe they are) - without an ability to corroborate a patient's assertion that they are trans, or to rule out other causes for their distress, then the prescription of these drugs to the wrong patient would do serious harm.

I absolutely reject that my expectation that trans healthcare has the same level of evidence behind it as any other field of healthcare has is a transphobic or bigoted stance.

Chickenyhead · 30/07/2021 15:19

Webberley is a sick child abuser who needs to be in prison for a very long time.

She SOLD the "medicines", sold them. She couldn't give a flying fuck about lives destroyed.

Your hero is a charlatan.

StrangeLookingParasite · 30/07/2021 15:23

Puberty blockers aren't damaging. They just prevent the onset of puberty, it just gives someone who's trans time before the onset of something that they really don't want to happen.

Believe me, no one gets hormones just for money.

Educate yourself.

ChloeCrocodile · 30/07/2021 15:27

Don't you think it would be good if trans people received adequate care?

They should receive excellent care, not just adequate. That means applying the same standards for safeguarding, consent and evidence as all other healthcare.

WarriorN · 30/07/2021 15:28

*People are spreading lies, basically.

Yes they are. Some of them are even convincing children that it's possible to change sex.*

Non binary is case in point. That young women are getting mastectomies to be "gender neutral" (aka male or a child) really blows the whole "trans" thing apart as a lie.

WarriorN · 30/07/2021 15:31

What's non binary?

Is that a gender dysphoria?

Or is it extreme uncomfortableness with one's body, which a huge number of people have?

Caused by society and visual media?

A nose job is one thing; altering your whole endocrine system is another.

WarriorN · 30/07/2021 15:33

There's a huge of money to be made in the trans industry as a whole, especially in the US.

We get a huge amount of cultural influence from the US.

R0wantrees · 30/07/2021 15:33

Perhaps if we had proper healthcare for all trans people, be they young or old, things would be better, and there would be no argument. Just let people work themselves out, and get on with their lives.

Proper healthcare is evidence based and ethically delivered. Patients, particularly children, do not self-diagnose and receive medical/surgical interventions on demand.

February 2019 previous thread,

"BMJ Prof Carl Heneghan, Evidence Based Medicine Oxford (Panorama, Trans Kids:) 'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review' concludes 'There are significant problems'

Professor Carl Heneghan was interviewed on last night's Panorama & as a consequence of his analysis concluded that 'informed consent is not possible'

BMJ EBM Spotlight paper:
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents – Evidence review'
Posted on 25th February 2019

(extract)
"Gender dysphoria occurs when a person experiences discomfort or distress because of a mismatch between their biological sex and gender identity. Gender dysphoria can arise in childhood and adolescent which raises many questions about how best to handle the condition. This post sets out the current evidence for gender-affirming hormones in adolescents and children to aid decision making. (continues)

"Conclusions

There are significant problems with how the evidence for Gender-affirming cross-sex hormone has been collected and analysed that prevents definitive conclusions to be drawn. Similar to puberty blockers, the evidence is limited by small sample sizes; retrospective methods, loss of considerable numbers of patients in follow-up. The majority of studies also lack a control group (only two studies used controls). Interventions have heterogeneous treatment regimes complicating comparisons between studies. Also adherence to the interventions are either not reported or at best inconsistent. Subjective outcomes, which are highly prevalent in the studies, are also prone to bias due to lack of blinding, and many effects can be explained by regression to the mean.

The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research. Treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms, including death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice."
blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

BBC 'Trans Kids: Why Medicine Matters'
More young people than ever are exploring their gender identity. Last year, two and a half thousand under-eighteens were referred to NHS England's gender identity clinics for support. Some are hoping to get access to potentially irreversible treatments as soon as they can. Doctors are divided about the best way to help.

Dr Faye Kirkland investigates how much we understand about the care being offered to transgender children."
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002tw1

thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3517453-Panorama-25-Feb-20-30hrs-Trans-Kids-Why-Medicine-Matters-Thread-title-edited-by-MNHQ "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518188-BMJ-Prof-Carl-Heneghan-Evidence-Based-Medicine-Oxford-Panorama-Trans-Kids-Gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-Evidence-review-concludes-There-are-significant-problems

R0wantrees · 30/07/2021 15:35

Apologies, I'm unsure how the inappropriate smiley face crept in.

Jackgrealishscurtains · 30/07/2021 15:56

Threads like this illustrate beautifully why Mumsnet is so loathed in certain circles. Articulate, fully evidenced, detailed arguments posted on a board where everyone can read it.

No wonder they are always trying to get it shut down!

PennineSpring · 30/07/2021 16:18

I agree with Jack. And thanks again to R0 for her incredible referencing skills. It’s no surprise many journos lurk on here.

Tibtom · 30/07/2021 16:43

@WarriorN

There's a huge of money to be made in the trans industry as a whole, especially in the US.

We get a huge amount of cultural influence from the US.

Which makes you wonder why drug companies don't seek to extend the licence of puberty blockers to include use as puberty blockers? Perhaps it is something to do with the need for evidence?
CharlieParley · 30/07/2021 17:06

@Nefelibata33

Puberty blockers aren't damaging. They just prevent the onset of puberty, it just gives someone who's trans time before the onset of something that they really don't want to happen.

I don't think adults who aren't trans have the right to tell kids who are trans what they can or can't do.

I despair really. It's not about protecting children ultimately. That's just an excuse for a load of unnecessary hatred. In reality, it's just that lots of people don't like trans people. I wish people would come out and say it, just be honest. It's irrational hatred

This is a statement betraying such profound ignorance I can only echo a previous poster: I am embarrassed for you.

If you're not too busy accusing strangers on the internet of hatred, I urge you to read up on GnRH analogues (only called puberty blockers when used in pediatric medicine), their history, the deaths they caused, including in children and the downright irresponsible way in which the FDA continues to ignore tens of thousands of reports of serious adverse side effects of the drug. Between 2013 and 2019, that's more than 46,000 including over 6000 deaths in the US alone. The FDA itself on investigating these reports (and other reports concerning different drugs) has publicly stated several times that it estimates that only between 1 and 10% of serious adverse side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the true number of people damaged by GnRH analogues is likely more than ten times larger than the known figures.

Please note what this is a discussion of the facts of giving puberty blockers to children with precocious puberty or stunted growth. Objections to their use in these children has nothing whatsoever to do with hatred, irrational or otherwise and everything to do with preventing harm coming to children from a medical treatment.

Puberty blockers aren't damaging.

This is an insidious lie. It goes hand in hand with two other insidious lies:

Puberty blockers have been used in children with precocious puberty for decades without problems.

and

The safety of puberty blockers used in children has been very well researched and there are no longterm side effects.

For the truth we have to look to the US, where thousands of women who received the GnRH analogue Lupron to treat precocious puberty or ensure a taller stature are desperately trying to raise awareness of the debilitating, life-limiting longterm side effects of the drug.

By now, most of us here on Mumsnet know about the effect GnRH analogues have on bone health, causing brittle bones which has caused paralysis in cases where the spine was particularly damaged by the drug as well as incontinence. Most of us have heard about the chronic, debilitating pain puberty blockers caused in the young patients and now adult child patients.

What's less known is that GnRH analogues are extremely powerful neural function modulators, also causing debilitating mental health issues, including severe depression, personality disorders, suicidality, anxiety and other mood disorders.

The EU completed a review of mental health issues caused by GnRH-analogues in 2010. Since then warnings about the drugs causing depression and suicides have had to be added to the patient leaflets in the EU.

In the 28 years since licensing the drug, the FDA has carried out several safety reviews of Lupron, acknowledging its dangerous side effects in all patient groups for whom the drug is used, but it is unwilling to withdraw the licence. (If you know anything about how the FDA goes about licensing drugs, you'll know the process is neither transparent nor as thorough as it should be.)

After the company that developed Lupron was forced to enter into evidence all studies it conducted on the efficacy of the drug when used in women with endometriosis, Dr David Redwine analysed the raw data and found that the FDA had only been provided with summaries that misrepresented the findings and omitted data from patients who were adversely affected. When he submitted a 300-page report to the FDA it did not dispute his findings. A year after Dr Redwine's submission it merely published a response saying no regulatory action necessary.

In 2012, a law proposal in New York was tabled to prohibit the prescription of the drug without including a warning on the bottle stating that it could cause death, heart attacks, diabetes and seizures.

Given the immense commercial interests connected to this drug, which makes more than 600 million dollars annually in the US alone, it is almost impossible to get that licence withdrawn. And not just in the US. The 2010 EU report for instance is almost entirely redacted in order to protect those "commercial interests."

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.madamadari.com/endometropolis/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Redwine-Lupron-presentation-Brazil-The-D-is-silent.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjx46SXiIvyAhXkhf0HHYUnC4sQFjAJegQIJRAC&usg=AOvVaw1SqpRS48-bp8-JZgo8FrUE&cshid=1627657618764" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Here is Dr Redwine's analysis of the data btw.

So, yes, puberty blockers are indeed damaging and they have horrific side effects (just to add a few more: causing cancer, gastro-intestinal diseases, heart diseases, lung diseases, feral malformations, ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome, polycystic ovariansyndrome and so on). And it doesn't matter whether it's Lupron or Triptorelin (branded as Trelstar, Decapeptyl, Gonapeptyl), Goserelin (branded as Zoladex), Histrelin (branded as Vantas, Supprelin), Nafarelin (branded as Synarel) or Buserelin (branded as Suprefact, Suprecor). Lupron is merely the best known because most sold of the lot. All of them have a known adverse event profile. That's because GnRH analogues are bloody dangerous drugs listed as "Hazardous" for HCPs handling them btw, that cause a lot of life-long, debilitating and often disabling side effects.

So much for not damaging and used without problems. Now a quick foray into how well researched their safety is in children. In a development that should surprise no one, they're not well researched at all. Available studies are sparse, subject numbers are usually in the single digits. Studies frequently omit data from child patients with adverse reactions (or as in the case of children who died while receiving Lupton for precocious puberty, the study authors declare no connection between death and drug without providing any supporting evidence for such a declaration).

This is a well known problem in drug trials generally, owed in no small part to the conflict of interest that arises from having the drug company seeking to sell the drug fund and organise its safety trials.

The situation is so dire that in one paper I read recently, one study author researching treatment options for precocious puberty lamented the absolute dearth of reliable studies into the safety of GnRH analogues when used in children.

There is no comprehensive body of research into the safety of these drugs when given to children for precocious puberty or stunted growth. It does not exist in anywhere near the volume that it needs to to prove safety. Everyone assumes it does, because the drug is widely subscribed.

Lots of information about the dangers of Lupron can be found on this website:

lupronvictimshub.com/index.html

Some patient and parent testimonies are here:

www.hormonesmatter.com/lupron-precocious-puberty-parents-patients-speak/

Looking into this horror show of drugs however at least explains why the use of puberty blockers in children diagnosed with gender dysphoria has not been shown to improve mental health outcomes.

Because these drugs cause mental health problems. Several patient and parent accounts in the link above describe children who turned suicidal, some as young as 8, after being put on these drugs for precocious puberty.

We are constantly confronted with the claim that children diagnosed with gender dysphoria must be given puberty blockers because they are so severely depressed, even suicidal that not to do so is hateful and unjustified.

How do you justify giving drugs proven to cause depression and suicidality in child patients to children who are already depressed and suicidal?

Chickenyhead · 30/07/2021 17:17

@charlieparley

Excellent post as always. You are my hero.

Not that the PP is here for facts.

Might be worth a thread of copy and pastable stock responses to this repetitive rubbish.

I would nominate that post.

Jackgrealishscurtains · 30/07/2021 17:21

Fantastic post @CharlieParley 👏

Whenever I see the words 'puberty blockers are merely a pause' I honestly shudder.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 30/07/2021 17:55

WarriorN
There's a huge of money to be made in the trans industry as a whole, especially in the US.

And, add to that nugget - the Lib Dems get a heap of funding from a pharmaceutical firm which makes this medication, doesn't it?

mollythemeerkat · 30/07/2021 18:03

How do you justify giving drugs proven to cause depression and suicidality in child patients to children who are already depressed and suicidal? Shocking stuff, Charlie and the rest of your post is a useful mine of information. Pity more TRAs arent willing to research and take notice before they jump on the bloody bandwagon.

merrymouse · 30/07/2021 18:04

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/mar/20/experience-i-took-hormone-blockers-to-become-an-ice-skating-champion

Whether or not the writer had an unusual reaction, this section is relevant.

“In Russia, it is widely known that young ice skaters use hormone blockers to keep their bodies from changing. In most cases, taking the hormone blockers works – although there are always side-effects, such as problems with your nervous system and your heart, that no one really talks about”.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 30/07/2021 18:19

@Jackgrealishscurtains

Fantastic post *@CharlieParley* 👏

Whenever I see the words 'puberty blockers are merely a pause' I honestly shudder.

I can think of a time as a pre-teen when my pedestrian self was hit by a car, driven at speed.

Perhaps the sustained concussion afterwards should be reframed as merely a pause in my consciousness and brain development. Hmm

Like others, I need to see data, pre-clinical and clinical studies to validate the claim that the use of puberty blockers is a "merely a pause" because I'm old-fashioned and evidence-based that way.

Until that time, as CharlieParley explains so well, it's unethical experimentation.

Tibtom · 30/07/2021 18:41

I can think of a time as a pre-teen when my pedestrian self was hit by a car, driven at speed.

Perhaps the sustained concussion afterwards should be reframed as merely a pause in my consciousness and brain development. hmm

Or you could say the act of applying one's foot to the accelerator is reversible - when you apply the action you speed up, you can then reverse this action and slow down. The fact you hit and killed five people and destroyed a house does not mean you have not reversed the act of applying the accelerator. So it is with these drugs.

StrangeLookingParasite · 30/07/2021 20:31

@charleyparley, you are brilliant.