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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Helen Webberley

978 replies

Signalbox · 05/07/2021 11:59

Looks like Helem Webberley's substantive case has finally been listed for 26th July 2021

www.mpts-uk.org/hearings-and-decisions/medical-practitioners-tribunals/dr-helen-webberley-jul-21

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Signalbox · 29/07/2021 11:44

@merrymouse

The doctor says without her services and NHS waiting lists for trans people at a record high, some desperate under 18s are sourcing and administering hormones bought on the black market.

And the service she provides is different to the black market because?

(Again, thinking about the Telegraph reporting).

Yes good point. How is an unregistered and unregulated practice not the black market?
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R0wantrees · 29/07/2021 11:50

I specialise in working with the LGBTQA+ community and their allies and am qualified in Gender, Sexuality and Relationship Diversity and so I have a deep understanding of the complexities associated with all these areas of life.

Marianne Oakes (Gender GP Lead Therapist)

'My Trans Journey'
(extracts)
November 2018 : This month saw the arrival of two small but life-affirming packages...
While I would love to share my latest news in a calm and orderly fashion, it is impossible. This month saw the arrival of two small but life-affirming packages, in the shape of my very own breasts and I couldn’t me more delighted. I am still suffering with growing pains which has made the wearing of breast forms impossible. This has left me with a dilemma: how do I go from wearing breast forms, which have for so long given me the female form I needed to feel safe, to having my own breasts - certainly small but increasing in size as the hormones weave their magic - without leaving myself vulnerable.

I needn't have worried, I arrived at an 'A' cup very quickly, a small 'A' cup granted, but enough for me work with. I purchased a bra and was able to enhance my natural assets with the help of some (what we girls in the know call) 'chicken fillets'. Searching the rails for ‘A’ cups was an eye opener as I also discovered I could wear bras a couple of sizes up and feel very comfortable boosted by the extra size which they comfortably provided." (continues)
Who knows what size my breasts will finally settle at. To be honest, right now I don’t really care. All that truly matters is that I am overjoyed with my developing body, a sensation which I have no doubt has been experienced by countless trans women before me. (continues)

*January 2019 - New Year New You?
"My life has changed in so many ways purely because of HRT. Yes, I am now having to work harder to maintain a body that is reasonably fit, but that is all I have wanted throughout the years. I can now engage with my friends who have had a lifetime of maintenance in this way, I can talk about dieting or keep fit, and these are some of the things that allow me to connect with my new world. To sit, if only in a small way, with my female experience, to be seen and received as the woman I am.

February 2019: Settling down
My Oestrogen levels have settled down and while changes are still happening they are slow and subtle. Initially I was desperate to see big changes happen fast but I have come to terms with the idea that, when it comes to hormones, nothing happens overnight.

I still look at my breasts every morning and evening, in fact every chance I get. It is difficult to describe the way it feels to finally have something I never dreamed possible, although growth still continues to be very painful!

My breast development has taught me two really important things:

1. Among all the changes brought about by HRT, my breast development has been the most significant in terms of the impact on my emotional wellbeing. My breasts are the undeniable proof (size at this stage really doesn't count), that my body is gaining the secondary sex characteristics of my gender identity. This is beyond anything I could have imagined before starting HRT. 2. I can't imagine being a young trans teen and going through this process if my breasts were not a welcome addition, such is the significance of this area of our body. The dysphoria it could potentially cause would be unimaginable. It is no wonder that trans boys choose to wear binders and long for top surgery.

In February, I had an appointment with the GIC and we talked about surgery - bottom surgery. I am not yet ready to think about this, I don't know why, but life is ok for now, my place on my journey is settled, my dysphoria is, for now, manageable.

I know for some this could never be the case at any time, but, my career is going well, I am connecting with my community and most importantly my family in a way I never truly thought possible and, for now at least, this feels enough.

June 2019: Gender Euphoria
Warning this post is influenced by a rush of Gender Euphoria which some may feel is currently out of reach for them. For the record, this is not my day to day state of being. I also fully understand that, for some, the idea of ever feeling this confident may seem impossible. But I want to send a very clear message: don’t lose hope. This is what it can feel like on a REALLY good day xx

I will confess, part of not losing weight and something that held me back, was fear. I was really worried that if I lost weight, my feminine curves would disappear and I would feel deflated. However I am delighted to report that nothing could be further from the truth - as I write this I am smiling like the cat who got the cream. For the first time in my life, I like my body, not just the curves, but the way I feel, my God it feels so good... But of course these things are never all plain sailing. My two best assets have sadly taken a hit, and some of what I have gained in size has reduced. I won’t lie, this does feel like a tiny step backwards, but I am sure they will make a welcome return, eventually.
www.gendergp.com/my-story-marianne-oakes/

In my opinion, middle aged fathers desparate to cause gynecomastia so they might experience the 'euphoria' of having their own breasts should not have influence over female children whose distress is often in part caused by how middle aged men fixate on girls and women's breasts.

R0wantrees · 29/07/2021 11:53

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

In April 2018 Dr Helen Webberley signposted children reading her blog to the fact that buying/intention to purchase black market hormones was one of the criteria to demand /justify provision of a bridging prescription from a GP.

Amazing how that wouldn't work for teenagers who wanted to source T for bodybuilding. Or middle-aged people who are desperate for thyroid medications.

Or someone seeking opiate-based pain medication.
BoreOfWhabylon · 29/07/2021 11:57

So, customers have a remote assessment with one of their Pathway People, e.g. the former croupier. The customer tells the PP what they want and the PP sends a report to the Medical Team, who devise a Care Plan from that report. It appears to be possible to never have any actual contact with a qualified clinician throughout the entire "Gender Journey"

The Clinical Lead is an Egyptian doctor, who is also a transwoman, presumably based in Egypt. I can find no record of this person being registered with the GMC and Gender GP appears to rely on professional staff based in other countries.
www.gendergp.com/medical-hub/a-gendergp-guide/

They are currently recruiting, no experience required
www.gendergp.com/jobs/

We are looking for doctors to join our team. You must be passionate about equality in healthcare, and understand the principle of gender-affirming care and informed consent, particularly in the care of adults and adolescents. Applicants can come from a wide variety of specialisms, including General Practice, Sexual Health, General Medicine, Paediatrics etc. No direct experience is required and full training is provided. The only essential qualification is a license to practice medicine in your country or work, and the drive and passion to help transgender patients with their medical transition. You must have an excellent command of the English language. More information on the care of trans patients can be found here.

Signalbox · 29/07/2021 12:07

In my opinion, middle aged fathers desparate to cause gynecomastia so they might experience the 'euphoria' of having their own breasts should not have influence over female children whose distress is often in part caused by how middle aged men fixate on girls and women's breasts.

Honestly it’s enough to make anyone want to get their breasts removed. I can never wrap my head around the grouping together of 15 year old females and middle aged men and treating it all as if it’s all the same issue.

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 29/07/2021 12:10

I see Marianne is 59, i.e. no more than a year younger than me. We therefore grew up in similar times. I seem to have been luckier than Marianne in not feeling as bound by gender stereotypes, judging by this entry from Marianne's blog from Sept 2019.


My role within the family faced an unexpected challenge this month when my youngest son decided to embark on the massive project of building a timber-framed garage, incorporating a recording studio and gymnasium - not for the faint hearted!

Before I trained as a counsellor I was a carpenter and joiner by trade, so I knew I would be expected to muck in.

In the past, before HRT, this would have triggered my dysphoria and led to questions about where I fit as a parent, how my family sees me and whether they truly accept me for who I am. I would have been anxious about whether the project would invalidate my gender identity somehow. I am delighted to report that this was not the case. In this instance, using a combination of my brains and my sons ability, we are now 60% of the way there. It has been a great bonding exercise which has proven to me that my place in their lives has not diminished in any way because I have transitioned.

R0wantrees · 29/07/2021 12:39

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g Oakes does not seem bound by sexist stereotypes.

Women Are Human
'These Chains That Have No Name: Interview with Trans Widows Voices' By Donovan Cleckley -March 31, 2021
(extract)

DC Similar to Brunskell-Evans, in one of your tweets, you observe that, for men with autogynephilia, inventing ‘the transgender child’ serves, in your words, “to convince the world that autogynephilia is not a fetish.” For heterosexual males, especially those who have abused and exploited their wives, this naturalization of what they do, as if it cannot be helped, seems to be a cover for their coercive patterns of behavior. What have you noticed about the appropriation of “the transgender child” as a sort of symbol for the innocence of men subjecting women to otherwise severe mistreatment?

TWV This is connected to something which I call the trans widow’s conundrum. During our marriages, to a greater or lesser degree, we see our husbands go through some kind of struggle relating to their identity. Often, we see them move from secret crossdresser to identifying as a ‘trans woman.’ There comes a point where they have to make a choice between continuing to live in a ‘male’ role, so to speak, or socially and medically transitioning. If they choose to transition, rather than live secret lives as crossdressers, then they very quickly have to start to project the idea that it was not a choice at all, but rather was really inevitable. Usually, they will say that they had to make the decision to transition – or else, as it goes, they would have killed themselves. They also have to begin to say that they were “born this way,” despite all the evidence to the contrary that the wife will have seen of her husband. This tactic aligns with ‘queer theory,’ attempting to bring the crossdressing husbands’ situations into line with that of LGB people. The thing is, though, that in doing this, while they may feel it excuses their actions to the rest of the world, it makes the situation only more of a conundrum for the wife. Which version should we believe? It is possible to accept that your husband married you in good faith, but then changed – especially when you have seen this situation develop with your own eyes. But it is impossible to accept that he married you under false pretenses, always knowing who he was, deep down, and what he needed to do for himself. If we believe the “born this way” interpretation, then, in fact, it makes our exes more, not less, like villains. We can never think well of those who hoodwinked us into acting as their ‘beards.’

For ‘born this way’ to be true, it is necessary for ‘the transgender child’ to exist. We are expected to believe that the middle-aged male transitioner, both a husband and a father, has so much in common with teenage girls who are struggling with their sexuality and gender identity. This expectation is why many of our exes become very vocal in supporting the idea of children and young people being ‘transgender.’ They may even say that they do not want gender-nonconforming children now to go through what they suffered in childhood, but, more often than not, even that is a total misrepresentation of history. Indeed, our exes often had seemingly normal, otherwise happy, gender-conforming childhoods, going from boyhood into manhood." (continues)

www.womenarehuman.com/these-chains-that-have-no-name-interview-with-trans-widows-voices/

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/07/2021 13:01

If any one is following the tweets there is another tweeter here:

twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1420668085690830848?s=19

Which has been very comprehensive today.

Signalbox · 29/07/2021 13:21

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

If any one is following the tweets there is another tweeter here:

twitter.com/MPTS_Hearing/status/1420668085690830848?s=19

Which has been very comprehensive today.

Annoyingly I'm blocked by that tweeter. I wonder why.
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SeaRabbit · 29/07/2021 13:26

Me too, signalbox...

irresistibleoverwhelm · 29/07/2021 13:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

R0wantrees · 29/07/2021 13:28

Annoyingly I'm blocked by that tweeter. I wonder why.

That being the case, there seems some contradiction with the account's claim, "This is an independent account set up specifically to live-tweet Dr Helen Webberley’s MPTS hearing. We are not affiliated with the MPTS"

Its difficult to know how comprehensive/independent live tweeting is without either comparing to the full transcript of a hearing or being witness.

Wh0Knew · 29/07/2021 13:33

@Signalbox
Why you are blocked might be explained by the tweets following under this “independent” account that is tweeting the case….

Helen Webberley
Signalbox · 29/07/2021 13:36

Perhaps it's a trans activist following the case. I think I might be on a terf block list. I can't think why else I would be blocked from an account that I've never interacted with.

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Signalbox · 29/07/2021 13:38

[quote Wh0Knew]@Signalbox
Why you are blocked might be explained by the tweets following under this “independent” account that is tweeting the case….[/quote]
Cross post. Yes that makes sense now.

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Wh0Knew · 29/07/2021 13:39

I would say so - I don’t have an account, so when I look at a tweet, I get similar account suggestions following on from the one I’m viewing. This account seems to have a definite tone about it….

FannyCann · 29/07/2021 13:42

I would stick to the other tweet account reporting the case.

twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1420643955000156160?s=21

Helen Webberley
BoreOfWhabylon · 29/07/2021 13:56

I was also wondering why I'm blocked by that account but all is now clear.

R0wantrees · 29/07/2021 14:08

GenderGP website
"Marianne Oakes, Dip Couns
As a fully qualified counsellor, with a post grad diploma in Gender Sexuality and Diverse Relationships, Marianne is our most experienced counsellor in the field of transgender care. She heads up our team of specialist gender counsellors at GenderGP. Marianne combines her own experiences as a trans woman with her affinity for others going through their own gender journey.

She came into this particular branch of therapy after struggling to find someone who could support her with her own transition. Marianne brings a unique insight to her practice, both from her own first hand experiences and her understanding of the impact which transition can have on families and loved ones.

She enjoys working with people of all ages, including children and their families, creating a non-judgmental space in which parents can talk openly about their own issues in relation to their child’s transition.

Client types:
Marianne works with people of all ages as well as neuro diverse individuals. She offers support to those suffering with GSRD and generic mental health challenges such as trauma, depression, anxiety and grief. She also works with families and partners who may be struggling with accepting a loved one’s transition."
www.gendergp.com/gendergp-network/marianne-oakes/

It is very apparent listening to the podcasts with Webberley and Oakes that Oakes has little awareness of family dynamics, child development, impact of grief, trauma,abuse, ADHD, autism and/or co-morbidities.

I would not be surprised if the recent exchange below becomes a case study in the future as it illustrates clear points of Safeguarding/Child Protection failure and the impact/s of gender identity ideology on a 10 year old child and family that should never have ended up being used to promote an unregulated online business.

Gender GP
"On this episode of the GenderGP podcast, Marianne and Helen are joined by the mum of a trans child. She shares her story of the challenges they’ve faced, the journey they’ve been on together, and the brave child at the heart of it."
www.gendergp.com/fighting-for-care-for-my-trans-child/

(transcript extract)
Marianne Oakes
Just to add to that, Lindsay. Is you haven't just got to have the Gillick competence to understand the medication, you've got to have the Gillick competence to understand the implications of not taking the medication, and actually that's a whole area that people forget, there's a choice here for all of you, you know for Danny to start puberty blockers or not. And yeah, there's side effects of puberty blockers. But if he doesn't take them there's a risk that he's gonna, you know his mental health is just gonna spiral, there's a risk that it will go into a tailspin that you'll end or, you know, with a life of, God knows, you know mental health issues with addictions are [unclear]. I'm not saying that it would happen. We've got to understand that that is a very high possibility. When we look at the, you know, the suicide risk. So so, not helping, there's probably more to consider by not giving the medication.

Lindsay
Absolutely, and you know what, as well I think it's so important to talk about the risks because they're always brushed under the carpet. You know, never at Tavistock, or through my GP, have we discussed, self harm, you know, depression, anxiety, suicide risk. All of these things aren't discussed but they're very much there. And that is what we need to know about so that if that does happen, we can support our children.

Marianne Oakes
I was gonna say one of the first young people I saw when I started working with Helen. They came to my therapy room in Wilmslow. And, you know everything else I've done online, but this one, I think there were about 13 or 14, this child. And the grandparent brought them, they were living with the grandparents. And I met them in the waiting room and I just said do you want to come through and I ask the grandparent did they want to come too, and they said "no I want to come through on my own." And you know, okay, as they came into the room I said "you want to take your coat off", and they took the coat off, and the scars on their arms, I nearly retched. I mean it wasn't just little vein tag cuts, they were swollen, all the way up both arms. Such was the pain being caused by dysphoria, and you know if they could have gone to their doctor before it got to that and being given the blockers, then that would never have had to happen. And this is what I say that there's a whole area of this is ignored completely, people don't want to, don't even want to acknowledge that that's a possibility. They're so focused on the side effects of medication.

Lindsay
I completely agree with you. I've seen it myself with Danny, he struggles with anxiety and low moods. This week has been really tough for him, I actually kept him off school yesterday, he, I've never seen him this low. He is normally such a chatty bubbly child. I took him to school today, and he never said a word, the whole way and that's never happened. And I can see that he's sad, and I said to him, you know "are you alright?" And he said "no," and I said "are you feeling sad" and he said, "I do feel sad, mum." You know, and it's just not, it's not on, it's not fair.

Marianne Oakes
It's not needed.

Lindsay
No, it's not needed.

Marianne Oakes
Everything you've said, Danny came out at young enough age that he should never have had to go through any of that, you know, I would say." (continues)

NB Lindsay is mother to 10 year old female child, D. D has diagnosis of ADHD and seen by CAMHS. D's parents are separated and disagree about medical interventions. Lindsay sought referral to NHS Tavistock GIDS via GP when D was 5 years old.

(extract)
Lindsay 16:50
"It's been quite a distressing experience. I personally feel. Danny's dad feels completely different. He respects what they say and thinks we should be guided by what they tell us that, as a parent, I feel completely different. I can't, I can't allow Danny, to not have hormone blockers until he's experienced periods. This is the advice I've been given. Sorry, it chokes me up thinking about it. So, for the last year and a bit, the meetings with Tavistock, Danny hasn't been he's been once to Tavistock to see them. Once in the whole time we've been with them. And he's been seen twice on Zoom, and it's so frustrating that Tavistock feel they have got enough knowledge about my child by seeing him three times to make these decisions about his future. It's wrong. It's absolutely wrong. And before I have any meeting with Tavistock I always say to Danny, I always have done: "Have you got any questions?" And he's always said to me, "When can I start the tablets?" He associated hormone blockers with those tablets, that's just how he interpreted it. So I'd always say to Tavistock, "Danny's got a question, when can he start hormone blockers?" And I was always told: "When that time comes we will support you with that." And I had complete faith that they would, but sadly that hasn't happened. A meeting in the last year, I mentioned hormone blockers, I said "Danny is developing he's definitely at Tanner stage two." I asked if there's a blood test they could do to see whether he was going through puberty and I was advised that there isn't a blood test available to check that, which isn't true, because you can check that. And I've now been told by Tavistock, that they would expect Danny to go through puberty, have periods, and then they will put him on the pathway to consider hormone blockers. Now we all know that that pathway isn't a quick pathway. I've had to make a complaint against one of our caseworkers at Tavistock, because I mentioned to her that I contacted Gender GP to sort out hormone blockers for Danny because I had to. And I was advised heavily, not to go with Gender GP, because they've been struck off, this that and the other. And I was told by this caseworker if I allowed a prepubescent child to go onto hormone blockers, it would be akin to mutilation."

NoWireHangersEver · 29/07/2021 15:23

Such a disgusting testimony by Oakes about self-harm.

Cutting in young girls doesn't 'have to happen'. It's not some force of nature preventable by HRT. It definitely doesn't exist so you can wax lyrical about it to eventually legitimise your own AGP and support your monetary interests.

These girls need continual support - people who can get to the root of their pain and actually make an effort to understand them, rather than pretending they can be fixed by a miracle drug.

I was 13 during the height of the self-harm contagion and my friend who cut herself started ID'ing as a trans boy a few months after showing me that she'd carved the word 'DIE' into her leg. Surely there's something deeper going on in cases like this - and if they can't handle early teenagehood without erratically self-harming, what makes professionals think they'll be able to cope with the distressing process of medication to change sex?
Sorry for OT post. Just makes me angry!

transdimensional · 29/07/2021 16:06

Sorry if this has already been explained, but why is the GMC counsel spending so much time questioning Gary Butler? What is his connection to Webberley's case? Is it simply that he is setting out the standard way of dealing with child patients with dysphoria (to the extent that such standards exist) so that this can be compared with how Webberley handled them? Or something else entirely?

transdimensional · 29/07/2021 16:39

I think I get it now - GB was administering blockers but refused to administer cross-sex hormones (and specifically T) and wouldn't have thought them appropriate for several more years. The patient obtained T behind his back from HW?

Signalbox · 29/07/2021 16:53

Gary Bulter is one of the GMC's witnesses (but not their expert witness)
It's Ian Stern QC (Webberley's counsel) who has been spending so much time cross examining him.

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transdimensional · 29/07/2021 17:15

Ah, I hadn't realised it was Webberley's counsel questioning him. I got muddled and thought that Stern was the GMC's counsel. But that explains why the questioning seemed a bit adversarial at times.
Thank you Signalbox. Much clearer now.

Signalbox · 29/07/2021 17:57

No worries. It took me a while to work it out. I’m just catching up and trying to find the order of tweets. It’s quite hard to follow. I wish there was a live link!

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