Prisons Judicial Review: Judgement

[KeepPrisonsSingleSex]

It's finally here...
The judgement in the prisons judicial review R (FDJ) v SSJ
will be handed down by email at 10.30 am today...

Here is a reminder of what it was about:

www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/judicial-review-campaign-update

Non transgender women
Non men
Non important

:(

@CharlieParley

Now this is finished

Finished? Not by a long shot. Especially now that a judge has acknowledged that the MoJ's trans inclusion policy puts female prisoners at risk, acknowledged that the inclusion of male transgender prisoners harms female prisoners and that the rights of female prisoners and male transgender prisoners do indeed conflict, with female prisoners losing rights when male transgender prisoners are included in the female estate.

That judge decided that the rights of male transgender prisoners supersede the rights of female prisoners. If you think that women, especially women's rights campaigners will meekly accept such an injustice, especially when it is inflicted on some of the most vulnerable of us, you don't understand women at all.

No holding back now!

And yes, women going for JRs that is us holding back. Parliament is sovereign in the UK. The legislative stands below. Which is why judges dislike judicial reviews. They ask judges to find that the state acted unreasonable. No judge wants to do that, unless the claimant can demonstrate that the state acted extremely unreasonable. Which is why the chance of succeeding at a judicial review are no higher than 30%. In most cases even less. But the bar is lower in straightforward discrimination cases. And that's where we should now turn.

(IANAL, but have had this explained to me by an actual lawyer. Any mistakes in the above are mine.)

Hear, hear Finished my arse! We are just going to have to push back harder. it’s an ongoing war, this was a battle and we will battle on. 💚🤍💜

Fuck this misogynist earth.

This ⬆️.

@NiceGerbil

Out of interest, does anyone feel like they've heard this argument from people with a different interest?

Women commit violent sex offences too

It's a people problem that impacts everyone. Not a sex thing. If you're only concerned with one sex then you're being very unfair. Things are actually worse for men so why aren't you doing something about that (instead).

Because this isn't the 'let's make the world lovely for everyone' section, people in these parts tend to be focused on women. Do you also argue that as things are much worse for donkeys then for dogs, the dog's trust should be focusing on them?

Fortunately there is nothing to stop you from campaigning for safer men's prisons, I'm sure everyone here would wish you luck in your endeavour, it's just not what we're doing right now.

@Sprogonthetyne I think NiceGerbil was saying that the whole 'what about the men?' is an argument she's heard from certain groups, rather than being her opinion.

Because this isn't the 'let's make the world lovely for everyone' section, people in these parts tend to be focused on women. Do you also argue that as things are much worse for donkeys then for dogs, the dog's trust should be focusing on them?

This evades the valid point made about female sex offenders.

Apologies, I'm tone-deaf in real life conversion and worse still in writing.

[quote Waitwhat23]@Sprogonthetyne I think NiceGerbil was saying that the whole 'what about the men?' is an argument she's heard from certain groups, rather than being her opinion.[/quote]
Apologies, I'm hopeless at tone in real life conversion, and worse still in writing.

I find the same with online conversations sometimes too, particularly when it's something like satire or the person is being sarcastic - it's not always clear. I'm going off my previous knowledge of NiceGerbil's feelings on the matter.

If the law is fucked then a senior politician needs the gumption to amend the Single Sex exemption bit of GRA to clarify it. Or redo the whole thing. This shower of bastards in government seem like the only lot willing to do it. Or there needs to be more sensible coverage in the media to start that debate that Stonewall was trying to silence. Maybe we wouldn't have to rely on Tory shits to get changes made.

By "amend", I mean start the process in Parliament.

@Cygne it would be interesting to know how many women who are violent sex offenders are in prison. The things I've read have seemed to indicate that the vast majority of women are imprisoned for non violent offences such as non payment of bills (the TV licence is often mentioned). If the discussion is 'women are sexual offenders too', I wonder how many are in prison? Or whether the presumption is that they become so in prison.

Whereas, men who have committed violent offences (including rape and sexual assult) seem to make up quite a large percentage of the male prison estate and this pattern of offences seems to be consistent with the offences committed by transwomen. It would be interesting to know the offences committed by transmen to see if the pattern continues.

I'm not sure what research has been done around this subject - I might have to have a better read of the KPSS website.

Addressing female sex offending - by actual females- is a separate issue. Make a thread about it and we can talk. Don't conflate the two.

I'm not conflating the two. A pp had said 'This evades the valid point made about female sex offenders' and I was pointing out that the level of women in prison for committing sexual offences is likely to be low to non existent in most prisons, unlike in men's prisons.

Something worth noting about risk assessment is that there are standard risk assessment measures - like the HCR-20 - which are used to evaluate risk of violence and reoffending in men.

Those tools aren't validated for use with women, who have very different offending patterns. That often means that they are not used for trans women either. So I have very little confidence in the risk assessment process tbh.

(This isn't my area of expertise btw - but I heard a talk about risk assessment in prison last year and this came up)

Now this is finished perhaps women will look to support those viulnerable prisoners who coerced into sex for safety or just plain sexually assaulted by male staff or other prisoners.

Finished?? Do you know any women? At all? This has lit a touch paper, the like of which I've never seen.

Most people don't even know about this dreadful, misogynistic, inhuman and discriminatory law. Until the judge spelt it out in words of one syllable yesterday.

This is blinding sunlight.

The judge practically recommended suing the MOJ.

What with that and the increasing enthusiasm to repeal the GRA, this is just the beginning.

That Daily Mail article. Pic of White.

Yup. That'll do it.

I am just so upset. Feeling despairing today.

I’m angry. Well more than usual. And as for the flipping olympics...

Marijuana XX
Babies XX
Larger bathing caps XX
You know where I’m going ...

The judge practically recommended suing the MOJ.

I really hope the woman behind the JR does sue. I assume her legal team will be discussing her options with her now?

It's admirable that women are going for Judicial Reviews first, rather than suing, as a way to try and help other women and children, but it's not working.

Hopefully other women currently in prison are being made aware that they are being discriminated against, and can take legal action too, if they wish.

Looks like services losing £££ will be the only way to get the fuckers to (begrudgingly) consider women's dignity and safety.

@InvisibleDragon

Something worth noting about risk assessment is that there are standard risk assessment measures - like the HCR-20 - which are used to evaluate risk of violence and reoffending in men.

Those tools aren't validated for use with women, who have very different offending patterns. That often means that they are not used for trans women either. So I have very little confidence in the risk assessment process tbh.

(This isn't my area of expertise btw - but I heard a talk about risk assessment in prison last year and this came up)

That's correct. The OASyS Sexual Reoffending Predictor Score (OSP) is the only risk assessment tool that is used with sexual offenders. It is only for use with adult men. This means that prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender and who have a GRC do not have the OSP used in their risk assessment. They must not have this risk assessment tool used. Because they are women and this tool is not for use with women.
So a prisoner who has been convicted of sexual or sexually motivated offences, for whom the OSP would in every other set of circumstances be used, suddenly mustn't have it used by virtue of the fact of possession of a piece of paper.

The MoJ (as reflected in yesterday's judgement) repeatedly says that they risk assess thoroughly to keep women in prison. But how can this be the case when not just the main, but the ONLY, risk assessment tool for sexual offending cannot be used?

There are other problems with setting prisoners' security categorisation, which also extend to prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender and who do not have a GRC and who wish to be transferred to the female estate.

In short, a prisoner with time on their hands and the necessary inclination can most definitely game the system to obtain a lower risk assessment profile and security classification to their advantage.

Just to note, the woman who took the case was assaulted by a prisoner with a GRC. So some of the 90 sexual assaults by women are by trans prisoners.

@OvaHere, it makes sane, detailed and accurate discussion almost impossible, doesn't it?

This means that prisoners of the male sex who identify as transgender and who have a GRC do not have the OSP used in their risk assessment. They must not have this risk assessment tool used. Because they are women and this tool is not for use with women.

This has left me speechless.

@KeepPrisonsSingleSex thank you for continuing this fight. It's bizarre it's actually needed. I'll be doing some digging for your fund - I was impressed to see that its already over £3k (from yesterday?)