Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Female athletes and testosterone

236 replies

Queuingroundtheblock · 01/07/2021 20:19

Just musing with a friend and we wondered - is the 10 nanomole testosterone limit for Olympic trans women athletes only for tw? Could women take testosterone to boost performance? I mean, obviously it's a really bad idea but just wondered if it's now allowed?

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 07/07/2021 20:37

Great posts anewcreation and helleofabore.

NiceGerbil · 07/07/2021 20:43

Why the hell are the female half of the world's population, in the last few years, being told to prove that men and women have different physiology?

It's bizarre.

RedDogsBeg · 07/07/2021 20:52

@NiceGerbil

Why the hell are the female half of the world's population, in the last few years, being told to prove that men and women have different physiology?

It's bizarre.

It is indeed bizarre, we've known for millenia that men and women have different physiology which is why sports and all manner of other things are segregated on that basis and now all of a sudden this is news to people and needs to be proven?
PennineSpring · 07/07/2021 20:54

It’s bonkers. And if Cyclingmum really is a cycling mum, she’d know full well that after puberty boys are so much faster on a bike than girls. (And have a shed load more opportunities in sport too).

NiceGerbil · 07/07/2021 20:59

Well and the minor point if it being both the root of our centuries/ millennia of oppression globally, and the reason we can be oppressed without to much trouble. If we were in general bigger and stronger than men ie it was reversed then I wonder how things would look.

The end point of the things being promoted. Have really dodgy logical end points.

Like. If the only reason men beat women by a distance in sport is because we don't try hard enough. And if we bothered we could beat them. Then when we are attacked by men we should be able to fight them off. And if we don't. Well surely we're not that interested in trying. Otherwise we would.

Aparallaxia · 07/07/2021 23:32

RedDogsBeg: #CheatersCharter would make a great Twitter handle for this sort of thread. [I wrote 'threat' first... Freudian or what?]

FemaleAndLearning · 07/07/2021 23:39

@ANewCreation

So, on the one hand, you have female athletes doing everything to maximise their physical ability, straining every sinew, considering their diet, sleep, analysing their opponents, working with their body and its natural advantages, concentrating on their psychology, putting themselves through gruelling training regimes which push their female body to the absolute maximum.

And then, on the other hand, you have another group of athletes (some of whom are just not quite good enough to make the men's cut or who have 20 years on their fellow competitors or will have noticed that they did not go through a female puberty a decade earlier) who are all about trying to minimise their performance, to the sweet spot where they don't have as much testosterone as they had before but can do enough to beat elite females because the 6500 differences between male and female bodies still come into play.

"To cheat: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage."

The current IOC rules are dishonest, inconsistent, sexist, unscientific rubbish but anyone with an ounce of personal integrity and respect for female athletes knows that an athlete who has gone through the advantage of a male puberty and uses that advantage unfairly against female athletes is, by definition, a cheat.

Fantastic.
GonadTheGaul · 10/07/2021 11:54

It looks like we've established there are a number of peer-reviewed, decent to high quality papers showing superior sports performance in males compared to females, a minimal loss of that performance advantage with testosterone suppression, and that some of the studies have included transgender participants (and researchers).

I still see nothing about the flaws in that research, or any discussion of peer-reviewed research coming to a different conclusion and why that research is better.

All I've seen from cyclingmum50 is accusations of transphobia and vague references to lobbying and bullying. Isn't it better to engage with the actual science?

andyoldlabour · 10/07/2021 13:19

GonadTheGaul

"Isn't it better to engage with the actual science?"

Always, but if they did that, then they would have to admit that they were wrong.

GonadTheGaul · 10/07/2021 13:32

Always, but if they did that, then they would have to admit that they were wrong

And admit they've got no evidence.

TedImgoingmad · 10/07/2021 14:07

I started another thread about this, but thought I'd flag it here. Selfish biological women are lobbying the Football Association to dispense with hormone testing, so that they can play in a mixed football team with their transgender team-mates. They claim sex based segregation is outdated. Not a thought for the wider implications on women's sport.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/amateur-football-hormone-trans-fa-20953035

GB news doing a piss poor job at probing and debunking this bullshit:

twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1413499666671439886

Cyclingmum50 · 11/07/2021 10:28

www.namibian.com.na/103188/read/Namibia-calls-out-World-Athletics

An update for those interested in such matters. And particularly calling out for these "XY athletes to be banned from women's Sport". These athletes are XX CIS gendered women.

This really does demonstrate that judgements and policing of athletes because of how they look HAS to stop.

This also confirms that biologically female athletes can have high levels of testosterone

Cyclingmum50 · 11/07/2021 10:38

www.namibian.com.na/103188/read/Namibia-calls-out-World-Athletics

The speculation about "XY" DSD athletes turns out to be inaccurate IF this report is accurate.

This means that biological XX women have been excluded because their naturally occurring Testosterone levels have been deemed "too high".

TurquoiseBaubles · 11/07/2021 10:49

"IF this report is accurate"

If the report is accurate and the athletes are women (as in have XX chormosomes) then they cannot be banned from the Olympics as the rules only apply to athletes with 46XY DSDs where there is testes and an androgen response.

If they were XX then their testosterone levels would be irrelevant.

But you know that, you have been told many times.

TurquoiseBaubles · 11/07/2021 10:53

Also, cyclingmum, you were going to show us the evidence that has convinced you that testosterone makes little difference, and also that most transwomen have testosterone levels under 2.

Many of us on this thread would be very interested to read any studies etc that you are basing your opinions on.

PennineSpring · 11/07/2021 12:46

I listened to the Science of Sport podcast last night. They talked about these athletes and said they were XY with DSD which explains why they have a sudden increase in performance between the ages of 16-18.

GonadTheGaul · 11/07/2021 13:00

@Cyclingmum50

www.namibian.com.na/103188/read/Namibia-calls-out-World-Athletics

An update for those interested in such matters. And particularly calling out for these "XY athletes to be banned from women's Sport". These athletes are XX CIS gendered women.

This really does demonstrate that judgements and policing of athletes because of how they look HAS to stop.

This also confirms that biologically female athletes can have high levels of testosterone

From the article: "The athletics governing body claim the athletes' testosterone levels exceed the limit designated for the 400 m, 800 m, 1 500 m and mile disciplines for athletes with differences of sex development (DSD)."

This suggests there is evidence that the athletes have a DSD, otherwise why would they be subject to these rules? Having 2 X chromosomes doesn't preclude a person also having a Y chromosome or a fragment of a Y chromosome containing the SRY region which determines male development. None of these conditions necessarily precludes also having another DSD. As far as I can tell, we don't know enough about these athletes situations and results to make a definitive judgement. The article doesn't mention their gender identity so labelling them as 'cis' seems like a bit of an overreach unless you know more about it than I do.

GonadTheGaul · 11/07/2021 13:01

@PennineSpring

I listened to the Science of Sport podcast last night. They talked about these athletes and said they were XY with DSD which explains why they have a sudden increase in performance between the ages of 16-18.
Thanks, I'm glad you're more up to date than me!
Helleofabore · 11/07/2021 14:02

From Cyclingmum's article.

A second test to determine their testosterone levels was recently done in Rome where the athletes are presently based while setting Europe alight.

And yet we know from people who have studied these regulations, including Ross Tucker who was heavily involve with Caster Semenya, that no 'second' test would be done if these athletes were in fact XX. So, who are you going to believe is purely up to you. A person that is heavily invested in having these athletes compete where the DSDs these athletes are not released to protect their privacy, or professionals with nothing to gain from it.

The star sprinters became the latest African female athletes to be marginalised by World Athletics' controversial rules, which have disqualified South Africa's Caster Semenya, Burundi's Francine Niyonsaba, and Kenya's Margaret Wambui from defending their 800m Olympic medals.

So..... now they are being more honest...

Nigerien sprinter Aminatou Seyni has also been barred from running in her favoured 400 m in Japan, and will have to make do with the 200 m race, like the Namibian duo.

Aminatou Seyni, is also an athlete with a DSD.

www.smh.com.au/sport/dsd-athlete-seyni-banned-from-400m-20191001-p52wq1.html

Namibia will look to ally with nations whose athletes have been marginalised by WA on similar grounds to contest the ban, Xoagub said.

Well, this is great news. Maybe this will force a complete and comprehensive study to be conducted independently of course, that will then remove these ridiculous differences between events. And duplicate the study with transgender athletes, too. Maybe, just maybe, it will also make the move much more fair to females.

Last week Wednesday, she blazed to victory at the Irena Szewińska Memorial meeting in Bydgoszcz, Poland, beating the current European champion Justyna Święty-Ersetic of Poland, who finished second more than 20 m behind.

With that outstanding run, Mboma also set a new u20 world record, African record, national record, meeting record, and personal best and world-leading time

Let's hope that world record will be contested now.

It remains unclear whether high testosterone levels give athletes a competitive edge, despite WA's policy.

Err.... no, it doesn't remain unclear. It has been proven. In fact, here is a study. But, we don't need the study.... in females it is called 'doping' to increase their testosterone.

news.ki.se/increased-performance-in-female-athletes-after-testosterone-supplementation

(here is the study bjsm.bmj.com/content/54/10/599)

The flourishing 800-metre career of Annet Negesa from Uganda was cut short due to WA's intrusive measures.

In an interview with the New York Times in 2019, she claims to have been advised by WA to undergo irreversible surgery because of her naturally elevated testosterone levels.

Negesa's career has never been the same and she subsequently quit.

The treatment of Annet was devastatingly cruel. However, the surgery they had was orchiectomy (removal of internal testes).

www.hrw.org/report/2020/12/04/theyre-chasing-us-away-sport/human-rights-violations-sex-testing-elite-women

I think it is likely that these athletes have been sold a dream that cannot be delivered on. It is abhorrent if they found out about their DSDs this way and the health services in those countries obviously need a great deal of improvement. But they the OIC has allowed this half way measure and it should not.

However, cyclingmum, I think we can reasonably say that the NNOC president, Abner Xoagub, actually knows the reasons why these athletes have been excluded. I think that the journalist Sheefeni Nikodemus knows the truth too.

As I said, it is up to you who you believe. But I would probably want to have better source material.

This also confirms that biologically female athletes can have high levels of testosterone

It does no such thing. At all. In fact, by reading this article you are left with the distinct impression that the NNOC know exactly what is what. If the "It remains unclear whether high testosterone levels give athletes a competitive edge, despite WA's policy." has come from the NNOC to that journalist, one could say they are very complicit in perpetuating lies.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2021 14:04

Sorry...

So..... now they are being more honest...

should be

So..... now they are being more honest... I think they know a great deal more than they are saying. These are all DSD athletes and they are drawing the comparison directly.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2021 14:18

@Cyclingmum50

www.namibian.com.na/103188/read/Namibia-calls-out-World-Athletics

The speculation about "XY" DSD athletes turns out to be inaccurate IF this report is accurate.

This means that biological XX women have been excluded because their naturally occurring Testosterone levels have been deemed "too high".

So, is this the level of your 'studies' then.

And you have previously posted:

"Interesting studies" that do not include trans women, usually compare customers men with CIS woman. And usually by a particular biologist who isn't even able to fill in a conflict of interest statement correctly. Doesn't seem very "credible" to me. That might be why those where "credibility" IS really key skip over their submissions. Lobbying. Bullying. Let's you so far. But good, ethical people are able to see through the hate and bs. And that's really great

And been proven false on the "Interesting studies" that do not include trans women, usually compare customers men with CIS woman statement.

Yet continue with the Doesn't seem very "credible" to me. when the study from the 'particular biologist' has been back up with similar conclusions from a transwoman doing a similar review... so, what is that about 'credibility' ...

That might be why those where "credibility" IS really key skip over their submissions. Lobbying. Bullying. Let's you so far. But good, ethical people are able to see through the hate and bs. And that's really great

mmm.. is this a reverse?

Because the only problematic 'lobbying' I see is from people using false conclusions to push through their agenda. Even Harper is very unconvinced that Hubbard is competing 'fairly' and Harper damn well advised the IOC committee!!!

Bullying.... like the bullying you perpetuate by denouncing the results from Dr Emma Hilton. Do you denounce all the studies done by the Karolinska Institute too that Tommy Lundberg belongs to?

But good, ethical people are able to see through the hate and bs.

You post an article in defence of females with high testosterone.... We know from evidence from the WA case that Caster Semenya has a particular DSD, it is not hard to find, it may have not been meant for public release but it was and that is out there. So, 'ethical' is certainly NOT a word I would use to describe this article with its twisting and turning.

So, I DO look forward to the evidence that you do believe conveys the truth. Please link it up and we are ready to read it .

GonadTheGaul · 11/07/2021 14:28

Yes I'm looking forward to seeing the science too, or at least a reasoned critical review of the papers cyclingmum50 disagrees with.

andyoldlabour · 11/07/2021 14:34

TurquoiseBaubles
GonadTheGaul
Helleofabore
PennineSpring

Thanks for all those detailed posts, which contain all the relevant information and more. Sadly, I think it will be ignored by those who are not prepared to provide their own "evidence" as a counterpoint.
There is no biological and ethical evidence to the contrary. The IOC/WA and other sporting institutions have allowed themselves to be influenced by lobbying groups with an agenda, rather than scientists and biologists.

Helleofabore · 11/07/2021 14:44

It would be sad to think that someone would come onto a thread with the objective of aiming the pointy finger of shame at us for having the conversation.

Or that if they had compelling evidence that would change our minds that they would keep it to themselves.

But maybe not acknowledging the evidence helps them to support someone that they love participate in the female category when the evidence is clear that this is unfair, whatever the skill level, if it is not a mixed sex competition.

PennineSpring · 11/07/2021 14:49

I believe there’s too much at stake for some people to admit they’re wrong, to admit black is not white, boys have performance advantage over biological girls. After all, when you’ve currently got the IOC and other NGB’s subscribing to this nonsense, why wouldn’t you dig in and take personal advantage of the rules.
But the emperor has no clothes, people have eyes, and as the Hubbard case has shown recently, worldwide public opinion does not agree with current IOC policy
If I had a personal stake in this I’d be thinking long and hard about the next 12 months. The IOC is under so much pressure to change policy and once they go, all the NGB’s will go too.
The pushback is building. How do you negotiate a way out whilst saving face?