Son has a girlfriend. Except...

[OddLookingYoni]

When my 15 yo son tells me he's going to see his mate Ethan (name changed for privacy reasons) for a few hours, my response initially was very different to what my response would be if he was going to his mate Jenny's house because it soon becomes apparent that Ethan is not just a mate. I'm a sensitive mum to sexuality issues and we have a conversation about that, one of many we've had over the years. DS is open minded, just as all my kids are, but he's never shown interest in blokes, and I offered him the chance to chat.
Eventually, after much confusion (would probably make an amusing Outnumbered sketch, tbh) it becomes clear that Ethan isn't male, and is in fact trans, but my god it was hard to get to this information because of all the chicanery around language and identification.

Obviously, I have no problem with him being gay, bi or het, and I don't mind him having a girl or boyfriend. But there are significant differences to the advice around certain behaviour with a female or a male, and it was one of the most frustrating parent/child conversations ever, and all the 'inclusive' language did was make communication nearly impossible.

How are you supposed to clearly get across that, "yes, Peter, you and Ethan both identify as male, but no, that doesn't mean that safe sex isn't important. No, you're not in a gay relationship with Ethan, and yes, it's perfectly possible to get Ethan pregnant, because Ethan is, in fact, female, and you are, in fact male. No, Ethan isn't 'male too, maybe the kind of male that can be pregnant if they choose to be' and contraception is relevant here, not just diseases, because you are the opposite sex to each other."

Inclusive, my arse. He's an intelligent boy, very black and white thinker, and a while ago was veering down the really angry internet dude route, but then he fell in with some people who are very into self diagnosing all manner of psychiatric disorders and he's gone compleyely the other way.

I know he'll move on, like I say, 15. But how on earth are you supposed to cut through the reams of 'inclusive' language to make sure he's behaving responsibly? (and yes, obviously I talked about the age of consent, but given that he thinks having a girlfriend with short hair who binds her breasts makes him bi/gay(his term), I think that's the tip of a very confusing iceberg)

@Viviennemary

I would forbid the relationship. They are underage and sex would be illegal. I would also inform the pardnts of your son's friend. It is a safeguarding issue.

The girls in my class who had the strictest parents had sex first. And found a large number of creative ways to get around their parents' restrictions. When my mother tried to stop me seeing my boyfriend and his mother tried to stop him seeing me, he sent someone to pick me up and I didn't even argue back to my mother, I just climbed on the back of that motorbike and left.

So I certainly wouldn't recommend that approach with teens myself. Especially since I was a goody two shoes and I still reacted like that.

@titchy

You say 'look son. I have no desire whatsoever to label either you or Ethan, or to label your relationship as a straight, gay or bi one. Why you youngsters are so keen on labels is beyond me but there you go. What I am concerned about is Ethan getting pregnant and the risk to both of you of STIs. So use a fucking condom.'

Say this. Absolutely.

“And yes, it can: if properly prosecuted; and the law is correctly enforced.”

It absolutely cannot. There is no way at all that consensual sex between two 15 year olds would ever result in a prison sentence. The law is meant to protect children from exploitation by adults not to criminalise sex between consenting 15 year olds. The CPS would never prosecute this.

Even if it was a normal homosexual relationship, barrier-type contraception should be worn to protect against STIs in the same way that a new heterosexual couple shouldn't rely on hormonal contraception alone until they've both had STI tests. So you could go along with that line as that applies equally to male-male and male-female intercourse.

Just reinforce Ethan is a male with male uterus and male ovaries.

What the hell am I reading? God, I'm happier every day that I don't have kids and have to deal with this.

Dd has so many trans boys in her year 8 class it’s an anomaly of nature. When she mentions a name I don’t know it’s usually someone I do know of but they’ve changed their name. I end up saying does he have a vagina or penis in order to grasp who is who. Overall I teach tolerance and acceptance as teens learn their place in the world.

As we know (from adult sexual relationships) not all encounters are consenting.

Not all teenage sexual encounters are consensual.

eg Recent stats from attacks in schools. Coersion exists.
A "but we were the same age" defence will not always stick. It is best not to teach boys that they can always rely on this as a "defence" should a girl/boy deem that infact they were assaulted.

@Viviennemary

Sex between them is illegal. Regardless if they are gay, bi, trans or straight. I checked. Lets stop all this pussy footing around.

Drinking and smoking at that age is also illegal. I still see 15 year olds doing that. This is why safety around alcohol is taught long before they're actually allowed.

Teens will be teens.

I missed this first time reading the thread .............

Just reinforce Ethan is a male with male uterus and male ovaries.

Please don't entertain this OP. It's fantasy, not reality.

Males don't have a uterus or ovaries.

You can't go wrong with biological facts. The truth is always the best route.

Just say that you know that trans boys don't always get sex education and sexual health care that is aimed at their specific needs, and that means that if they decide to have a sexual relationship he needs to be extra responsible, both about talking things through to make sure they are both comfortable with what they are doing, and to prevent pregnancy, and that if he has any doubts to talk to you or to whatever the reliable teen sexual health provider in your area is.

Don’t ask me why this thread has been retrospectively moved into the new ‘sex and gender debate’ section (massive eye roll) but maybe you could read this article and thread and then talk to your child about anal sex and its risks for young women. Even if not an issue for now, it seems to be so normalised and the risks glossed over that it could be worth a specific talk. Also worth highlighting maybe, that not all gay/bi men have penetrative anal sex.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2163387-Depressing-report-anal-sex-in-under-18s

@NotAllTheOnesWhoWanderAreLost

Just reinforce Ethan is a male with male uterus and male ovaries. That means Ethan can get pregnant and be a father.

(Yes it hurts to say that but apparently in trans language that is acceptable- just like you can have a female dick…..)

At least, you can get your message through which is PROTECT YOURSELF. Even if Ethan is male, pregnancy is still around the corner….

The world has truly gone mad. Just when is this bogwash going to end?

@m0therofdragons

Dd has so many trans boys in her year 8 class it’s an anomaly of nature. When she mentions a name I don’t know it’s usually someone I do know of but they’ve changed their name. I end up saying does he have a vagina or penis in order to grasp who is who. Overall I teach tolerance and acceptance as teens learn their place in the world.

Seems incredibly inappropriate to be asking your child about her classmate's genitals, on multiple levels - and also unnecessary, since you could just ask "Is X trans?" if you really must know.

Can girls on puberty blockers get pregnant though - might that be relevant?

If a child is on puberty blockers and so haven't gone through puberty would they have any sexual desires at all?

@AlfonsoTheMango

he fell in with some people who are very into self diagnosing all manner of psychiatric disorders

He must have an MN account - MNers are famously able to diagnose at a distance all manner of conditions, with a specialty in autism.

To clarify: autism is a neurological condition, not a mental health disorder.

I suspect the op wasn’t talking about her son being in with a group who self diagnose with autism. The self-diagnoses-du-jour are DID and similar things that make the people feel interesting and different with nary a thought for the actual pain and actual distress that actual diagnosis can bring

15 year olds. 🤦‍♀️ Fucking hell, my 15yo is also giving me grey hairs. Well done sorting through the obfuscation op.

@BlueberryCheesecake9 actually if they were just trans then it would be less complex. There’s so many names for everything. Dd is allowed people with vaginas to hang out in her bedroom but those with penises are not allowed. They don’t always call themselves trans so it’s not that simple. Albert is definitely a boy apparently (but biologically female).

Am I the only one who thinks its quite sad that a fifteen year old girl enforces anal sex on her (and partners) first relationship, something that cannot give her sexual pleasure, because of an idology.

My opinion on this movement, and also alot of sex 'positivity' movement as well, is how squeemish it is about actual female sexual pleasure.

Men are very uncomfortable with women coming sexually.

Oh my goodness this thread has certainly moved on. Last time I looked there was no mention of sex between them.

I don't blame the op for being worried, it's horrific.

To be honest, we have no idea what’s going on. For all we and OP knows, they could just be friends and never even have kissed.

However, if it was my DS, I would give him the speech that I outlined. Which includes the fact that girls people with vaginas don’t get any pleasure from anal sex due to the absence of a prostate.

I would have that talk with my son because I want him to grow up respectful around all people and girls people born female in particular. If I needed to have that talk discussing anatomy only I would. And I would tell him that if I ever found out that he had harassed, pressured, or made a girl female born for anything they didn’t want, he would be faced with a stern talk from both me and DH, been forced to apologise to the girl person and would be grounded for months.

If he caught the insanity of gender illusion believed that girls could transform into boys, we would have that discussion referencing biology only.

Am I the only one who thinks its quite sad that a fifteen year old girl enforces anal sex on her (and partners)

oh come on, thats pure speculation on the part of a couple of posters- the op has not indicated this at all.

(but i agree, if that is so- its horrendous...)

Seems incredibly inappropriate to be asking your child about her classmate's genitals

Yes, well, we used to have universally understood words for the two kinds of humans which conveyed that information in a more discreet manner. It's not our fault that other people have undermined and twisted those words to the point that they’re nearly useless.

@BlackForestCake exactly!

Ok, couple of things - as it happens, I've always been quite blunt that females don't have a prostate, so butt stuff isn't the same for them, and yes, also that gay men actually don't always have anal sex. The conversations we have about sexual activity are pre-emptive and honest, and yes, I am clear about the law. I do not think they are actually having sex, and tbh, if you've got this far and not picked up that despite my son's intelligence, he's quite naive, I don't know what to tell you.

He is actually officially diagnosed with Asperger's, and yes, as others have indicated, the silly self-diagnosing shite online was DID. I listened to a cheery American teen explaining to me that DID was caused by significant childhood trauma at a formative age, and that my son had fallen off play equipment when he was 7 which was the trigger. I shut that bollocks down quickly by saying to her that as some with C-PTSD caused by sexual abuse in childhood, I knew a damn sight more about it than she seemed to, and would take it from here, and thankfully that seemed to curb the influence.

No, I won't be forbidding my children from relationships, I'll be walking with them through a confusing and often frightening world where others who don't have their best interests at heart will tell them lies. I will maintain truthful communication at all costs, because they're my kids.

I'm very proactive in talking to and caring for my kids, as I know many are here, and I genuinely appreciate the wisdom and support here.