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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The use of the term 'trans widow'

430 replies

aibubaby · 25/06/2021 11:57

I've found this term in poor taste ever since I saw it, and this article I've seen on Twitter is a great look at why.

rachelemoss.com/2021/06/24/a-letter-to-trans-widows-from-an-actual-widow/

Marriages end all the time because one spouse isn't who the other thought they were. It's sad or heartbreaking or difficult, and people have (obviously) got the right to grieve for a relationship which is no longer the same. But it isn't a death and it's thoughtless to describe it as though it is.

OP posts:
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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/06/2021 13:45

Why is the term "transwidow" not ok as it disrespects real widows, but somehow the term transwoman is fine?

AlfonsoTheMango · 25/06/2021 13:49

@MrsSteveMcDonald

If trans people can say their old name is a dead name then why can't their ex wife call themselves a trans widow? It seems that the males are allowed to use a term to do with death but not the females in your view.
I agree.

If a person changes their name and refers to their birth name as their "deadname" then their spouse is quite right to view the marriage as dead (if they like) and to refer to themselves as transwidows.

JediGnot · 25/06/2021 13:50

@SweetPetrichor

Personally, I think the term is deliberately emotive as a means to make it all about them. People want to be a victim. If my partner came out as trans, and I chose to end the relationship at that point - or they did - it’s not a ‘death’…I’m not a widow. The person is still there. The person you love is still there. Now, if the trans part is a deal breaker, by all means end the relationship but it’s a break up in any other way. The term trans widow is just a gross symbol of people’s desire to be the centre of attention.
That is some serious projection there!

If "look at me in my shiny new breasts and lipstick - let me dictate to you how you should refer to me, please ignore reality from now on" isn't the grossest symbol of people’s men's desire to be the centre of attention then I really don't know what is.

I am pretty damn sure that trans widows have no desire to be the centre of any attention.... but just maybe the idea that their marriage is ending in circumstances that undermine the entire relationship is something that the woman is allowed to (self-)obsess about if she wants?

"If my partner came out as trans, and I chose to end the relationship at that point "

You do realize that by using the word choice you are saying, that these women can easily stay with their husband, which means you are saying either -

(1) heterosexual women can continue having a heterosexual relationship with the male-bodied trans-woman because TWAM. Leaving is a choice. Being transgender is simply a meaningless internal thing with added gender expression lipstick - nothing has changed so why should the woman leave. [TRAs would regard this as transphobic, surely?]

or

(2) heterosexual women can and should become bi or lesbian overnight based on the gender change of their partner. [Everyone I know, GC or TRA regards the idea of conversion of sexual orientation to be homophobic]

or

(3) heterosexual women can't change sexual orientation, but they should continue to sleep with their husband even when doing so breaches their sexual orientation boundaries. [Surely this is homphobic and misogynistic?]

I literally cannot conceive of how TRAs can't see how bigoted and offensive they are when they say things like this.

AlfonsoTheMango · 25/06/2021 13:51

And I don't know who Amanda Cox is but I don't trust anyone who uses the term "cis" to refer to humans.

adviceseekingnamechanger · 25/06/2021 13:51

This reply has been deleted

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R0wantrees · 25/06/2021 13:52

I've found this term in poor taste ever since I saw it

I find your atitude and sense of entitlement in rather poor taste. The Trans Widows Voice's website addresses common questions:

"Why do you call yourself trans widows?
Women in this situation report feeling like their male partner has died. This is particularly the case if they decide to transition. The transformation is usually so complete that their partner is unrecognisable as the man they married both in looks and in personality. The woman will be forbidden from calling her husband by his previous “dead name”.

Women in this situation need a label to gather around and to identify with. “Trans widow” is the name that we have chosen and it is enabling us to find each other.

Is trans widow one word or two?
We believe that our oppression is sex based, not grammar based so either will do. Similarly, we didn't invent the term but if anybody knows who did, we will happily credit them!

Trans widows? Isn't this term offensive?
Your husband is not dead. Surely you appropriating the term “widow” is very offensive to actual widows? Many actual widows have confirmed that they are not insulted in the slightest and understand that the analogy is appropriate. It is common for the word “widow” to be used as an analogy as well as in its literal sense e.g. “golf widow”.

What about the women who are perfectly happy with their trans husbands?
We wish them all the best and note that they are able to get support from transgender organisations. We are here if and when their situation changes."

www.transwidowsvoices.org/

JediGnot · 25/06/2021 13:56

@SweetPetrichor

Yeah, it is about both parties, but if I ended my relationship - a mutual agreement by both parties - I wouldn’t go around saying I was a widow, would I. That’s be weird. I’d say that we chose to go out separate ways.

trans-widows are not saying they are widows, they are saying they are trans-widows. A widow is a woman whose husband has died. A trans-widow is a woman whose relationship has been ended by a man choosing to identify as a woman, despite not being able to define gender identity, nor having the first concept of what it feels like to be the other sex. Two completely different things.

I genuinely do not believe that anyone who uses the word trans-woman believes that the woman part is literal - it is clearly figurative as if it were not then the trans bit wouldn't be needed and male-bodied trans people wouldn't get upset by a dictionary definition of woman.

TheWeeDonkey · 25/06/2021 13:57

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

TinselAngel’s had to leave Twitter temporarily because the Trans Widows’ Voices account was getting so much abuse - death threats even - following the recent article in the Telegraph.
Ah, now this thread makes sense.
JediGnot · 25/06/2021 14:00

@AlfonsoTheMango

And I don't know who Amanda Cox is but I don't trust anyone who uses the term "cis" to refer to humans.
I used to use the term out of courtesy - and perhaps still do occasionally in very specific circumstances. I use it as little as possible now because of how many women hate it (understandably, as we already have a word for cis-women - women - we don't need the cis at all).

Go easy on people who use it, or at least on some of them - not all are deliberately using the word to denigrate women, man are still finding their way in this mess of an issue.

JediGnot · 25/06/2021 14:00

many not man!

TMNTFan4eva · 25/06/2021 14:03

If your partner sadly dies after loving you for decades is that grief worse than your partner choosing to leave you after decades to pursue a career of being a self-indulgent nitwit? Particularly when all your friends want you to be supportive of the nitwit for finding his "truth"?

Either way, you get left alone but I don't think there are many self-help groups where you can go for support. That's in no way meant to diminish the hideousness of bereavement but merely pointing out how horrible the other thing is as well. I think it must be a terrible thing for the meantla health of someone to find out that they've been lied to and gaslighted for years by a person they love in a way that someone dying wouldn't damage you. Same as in a long term affair.

IAmAWomanNotACis · 25/06/2021 14:04

From what I have read and understand, many trans people consider their previous identity to be dead, not just their previous name. They will use phrases like "John doesn't exist any more." I find the term deadname upsetting personally, as it is often part of the way that a person who has been a husband and a father censors and tries to rewrite other people's memories.

I don't find trans widow offensive, I think that it must feel very much like you have lost and are grieving for (or not allowed to grieve for) the person who you fell in love with and married.

zzizzer · 25/06/2021 14:06

Tell you what, if everyone gets rid of the words transwomen and transmen and calls them men and women (for the sake of factual accuracy which is being asserted here), then we'll campaign to get rid of the word transwidows too and call them ex's.

Assuming that you won't (because the words above have significant meaning to those groups and their sense of self identity), why would you just wipe out another group's self-developed identity?

Like it or not, the term transwidow has come to mean something culturally. It signifies the women abandoned by their husbands who declare their whole past life (often with multiple children and decades of married life) as a fraud, and tell them that the person is long dead and gone.

I can see why transactivists dislike the reminder that they've hurt people - but it's not really their place to tell those people how to express their pain.

heathspeedwell · 25/06/2021 14:07

Over 30 years ago the Beaumont Society noted that around 100 women a year were being delivered into psychiatric care as a direct result of being trans widows - it's an entirely different experience to splitting up with your partner because you happen to have just grown apart.

"In 1998, Diana Aitchison remarks about women who called the Women of the Beaumont Society helpline after discovering their husband’s cross dressing/transsexuality that “in some cases…the wife is already too tired and weary to fight back, especially when there are young children to consider. Some are calling from phone boxes so that their spouses do not discover that they have made a cry for help.” Naefearty notes, “I felt I was being driven insane” noting that her “sense of self” and ability to set limits “came to dominate and shape every corner of [her]life.” She adds, “I never knew where or when the next assault to my psyche was going to come, and so I existed for a long time in a state of hyper vigilance. That is, until such time as my ability to dissociate kicked in.” These do not sound like women in happy, non-abusive relationships.

In a speech entitled “The Psychological Effect on Wives and Partners of Transsexuals,” Aitchison, the co-ordinator of Women of the Beaumont Society, informed the Gendys Conference in 1998 of the hard facts behind this growing phenomenon:

It is estimated that some 100 hundred women per year are delivered into psychiatric care as a direct result of their experiences [of being wives or partners of transsexuals]. Many remain silent, too traumatised to describe what has happened to them. It is my intention to try to describe hitherto unrecognised mechanisms at work within a relationship where Gender Dysphoria is present, which reinforce female disempowerment and which can ultimately destroy their psychological well being.

Aitchison also detailed specific cases at this conference:

One wife described to me that, just prior to her breakdown, she discovered her husband lying on her side of the bed, dressed in her nightie having adopted what she instinctively recognised as her own sleeping position. “He had stripped from me the last of my exclusivity,” she declared. “I had turned a blind eye to many of his mannerisms although they irritated me to distraction sometimes. If I complained he sulked and ignored me, sometimes for days. I found that it was better to say nothing, just put up with it.”

These women ended up fully dehumanised and possessed by these men as they recount being slowly manipulated to accept ever-increasing violations of their personal boundaries. Farah relates her experiences of guilt and shame surrounding her experiences:

If I had stayed with him, there is no question that I would have had a complete nervous breakdown. As it was, it took 4 years of counselling to come to terms with what had happened, and many more years before I felt it no longer defined me. I chose to be secretive about it because I was humiliated that I found myself in that position; I did not want people to gossip about me behind my back, I didn’t want to be seen as somebody who had been so misguided to have married a man who wanted to become a woman – or worse, that I had driven him to it. Today, I still have those feelings of guilt and shame.

These women are internalising the message that it—be it their partner’s “transition” or the relationship breakdown—is their fault. It isn’t. One woman describes how “It felt like a battlefield: you would make decisions that affected us both and lob them at me like grenades, unspoken ultimatums that told me I needed to shut up, or leave.” That is the clinical definition of controlling behaviour, that fits the legal definition of domestic abuse.

uncommongroundmedia.com/domestic-abuse-related-to-late-transitioning-partners-part-i-coercive-control/

chickenyhead · 25/06/2021 14:07

@zzizzer

Tell you what, if everyone gets rid of the words transwomen and transmen and calls them men and women (for the sake of factual accuracy which is being asserted here), then we'll campaign to get rid of the word transwidows too and call them ex's.

Assuming that you won't (because the words above have significant meaning to those groups and their sense of self identity), why would you just wipe out another group's self-developed identity?

Like it or not, the term transwidow has come to mean something culturally. It signifies the women abandoned by their husbands who declare their whole past life (often with multiple children and decades of married life) as a fraud, and tell them that the person is long dead and gone.

I can see why transactivists dislike the reminder that they've hurt people - but it's not really their place to tell those people how to express their pain.

THIS
TieYourCannons · 25/06/2021 14:08

Transwidow here.

'Dead' refers to the name. 'Widow' implies the person is dead. Quite a difference, in my opinion.

But not in the opinion of the transperson who often refers to their previous selves as dead. And to all intents and purposes mine is dead. The effect on me is the same as if he had literally died.

'Divorced'?
That term won't cut it for me, as we aren't actually divorced.

And I think 'golf widow' etc, while a bit off-colour, is meant to be semi-joking - it's obvious that they aren't trying to describe themselves as literally bereaved. Whereas 'trans widow' appears to be more seriously used (as it's a more serious situation, of course) - that distinction I think it what I find a bit off about it.

So it's ok if it's to have a bit of a laugh but not if it's to describe someone's serious emotional trauma? That's a very weird and baseless distinction. What if a golf widow was seriouly upset, or a transwidow used it lightheartedly, would that be ok then?

Datun · 25/06/2021 14:09

aibubaby

The term transwidow is a reaction to the experience that these women have been through. Their experiences are remarkably similar. And it is a complete annihilation of not just the relationship, but often the past relationship, all the way back to the beginning.

And you ought to know, too, that these women and their narratives have gained a strong, legitimate standing. They have been asked to submit testimony to the government, and are being reported on in the mainstream media.

It's little wonder that they are now being targeted. Their stories are an invaluable source of understanding and enlightenment in terms of gender ideology, how it can play out and how it can have a devastating effect on a family.

The targeting of tinsel on Twitter, and these sorts of articles are a reaction to the knowledge of trans widows becoming more widespread.

Wallpapering · 25/06/2021 14:09

Odd that the very article you posted link to took dig at Mumsnet and you knew exactly where to find the witches, whereas if that was me I would of thought first place to go would be section MN has just for widows and post there although doubt MN would of let it stand as on this part of MN that women are free game.

You don’t need to know usernames of trans widows the title of threads are give away, which are not in sub that allocated for widows.

Why you mention about your own username I duno if that meant to mean something as didn’t when users mentioned penis beaker and chicken that feed 5000!

It’s the intentions behind the post that matters.

Obvious the intentions here but what don’t know what you expecting given where you have posted?

Sophoclesthefox · 25/06/2021 14:11

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Why is the term "transwidow" not ok as it disrespects real widows, but somehow the term transwoman is fine?
Pithily put!

Look, OP, it’s very possible that you’ve inadvertently stumbled into a minefield that you had no idea existed, and you had no awareness of the long running support threads for trans widows that are hosted in the Women’s rights section here. They have been visciously targeted for years by people who would rather that transwidows were not able to connect with each other and share their stories, and receive support.

The trouble is, while you might be genuine, this place attracts many many people of the exact same ilk that put the boot into the trans widows Twitter and website, and target them for the most vile abuse. We have people dropping by here to scold women for being horrible, for speaking out of turn, for having unacceptable opinions on the daily. That’s the context that you are posting in, on a topic that is currently already receiving a lot of attention. If posters here have doubted your motives, that’s why.

Does that help?

TieYourCannons · 25/06/2021 14:13

@zzizzer

Tell you what, if everyone gets rid of the words transwomen and transmen and calls them men and women (for the sake of factual accuracy which is being asserted here), then we'll campaign to get rid of the word transwidows too and call them ex's.

Assuming that you won't (because the words above have significant meaning to those groups and their sense of self identity), why would you just wipe out another group's self-developed identity?

Like it or not, the term transwidow has come to mean something culturally. It signifies the women abandoned by their husbands who declare their whole past life (often with multiple children and decades of married life) as a fraud, and tell them that the person is long dead and gone.

I can see why transactivists dislike the reminder that they've hurt people - but it's not really their place to tell those people how to express their pain.

Thank you, from my heart.
NewYearNewTwatName · 25/06/2021 14:13

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

I don't give a shiny shit how trans Windows prefer to refer to themselves, or who it offends. They've been through enough. Unlike a spouse just becoming incompatible with them they aren't even supposed to acknowledge that the person they knew as their husband ever existed. They're supposed to pretend that they've always bewen called by a feminine name, and have all official documents altered to pretend that's the case. They're supposed to pretend that their husband is their wife, that they have always been married to a woman, that it makes no difference to their own lives, that they're actually happy about it. They get wheeled out in propaganda videos to exclaim through forced smiles how wonderful it is that their family now had two mummies. Their role is very clear - they are to support the fantasy at any cost to themselves. I think we all remember that BBC short film "when dad became Charlotte" or whatever it was called, where Charlotte was pictured whizzing around of Rollerskates demonstrating, of course, just how much of a woman she really was, with the kids running to keep up with her, and the "other" mum trudging along behind carrying all the bags and coats. I feel offended for her. This isn't just a case of "he changed, we grew apart", it's an extra cage placed around women who are usually already in very unhappy or even abusive marriages. And if they fail at any part of this, if they even hint that they are anything other than delighted and supportive, then they face ostracisation from their social group or even actual abuse on and offline.

I don't give a shit if they call themselves transwidows. I don't give a shit if anyone is offended by it. How about being offended on their behalf by what their husbands are doing to them? Or, if you really can't muster up even a shred of empathy for these women, how about just fucking off entirely and leaving them alone? Sick to death of the endless bloody policing of how women express and describe themselves.

👏👏👏 ^this
ErrolTheDragon · 25/06/2021 14:14

I'll add to that.... I've been around for years, but a while ago the aforementioned TinselAngel had to politely but firmly hand me my arse over an issue I took some time to get my head around.

aibubaby · 25/06/2021 14:20

@Sophoclesthefox

The trouble is, while you might be genuine, this place attracts many many people of the exact same ilk that put the boot into the trans widows Twitter and website, and target them for the most vile abuse. We have people dropping by here to scold women for being horrible, for speaking out of turn, for having unacceptable opinions on the daily. That’s the context that you are posting in, on a topic that is currently already receiving a lot of attention. If posters here have doubted your motives, that’s why.

Does that help?

Actually, yes, it does. I don't often venture 'in here' as my views are partially at odds with lots of those shared here (and in some ways not at odds at all - I wasn't coming in to start a fight). I was genuinely struck by the poignancy of the article I saw retweeted into my Twitter timeline and thought it was an interesting topic of discussion given that I've seen the term trans widow used on Twitter occasionally too and know this board is a centre of lots of discussion - I knew it would potentially be disagreed with by some posters but I also thought it was a point worth exploring as Mumsnet has, by virtue of having a userbase full of women, also got many widows on here. The board is obviously more homogenous in its view on it than I expected and I've had some very interesting and thoughtful responses, some of which I agree with and others I don't.

I don't agree with anyone being targeted for abuse, regardless of their views.

OP posts:
chickenyhead · 25/06/2021 14:23

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/36734/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwi0nfTg5bLxAhWSa8AKHSyuBgcQFjAFegQIEhAC&usg=AOvVaw0HJOitQybrl3wxOGWCWqPN&cshid=1624627337542" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/36734/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwi0nfTg5bLxAhWSa8AKHSyuBgcQFjAFegQIEhAC&usg=AOvVaw0HJOitQybrl3wxOGWCWqPN&cshid=1624627337542

Datun · 25/06/2021 14:24

@aibubaby

The link below is to the transwidows website. If you do nothing else, just read a couple of the stories. Just a couple.

It's an enlightening experience.

www.transwidowsvoices.org/

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