GC protected belief and use of cis

[OffYouGoNow]

Now that gender critical beliefs are classed as a protected belief, can we argue that the use of ‘cis’ ‘cis women’ etc. - particularly in the workplace - constitute as harassment?

Not sure if this is repeating what others have said, or if I'm expressing it well, but here's my tuppence worth:

Cis = on the same side as.

So cis gender supposedly means your gender 'matches' your sex.

But as we know, gender and sex are different things.

So is this not like saying you are cis -height if you height 'matches' your weight? In what sense could your height match your weight?

What does the 'match' mean in both scenarios?

I guess there is correlation (across the whole population) between gender and sex and gender and between height and weight, but there are to many outliers that to say your height matches your weight or your gender matches your sex is....not very useful?

I wonder who first used this and why... my sister used to call me ‘Sis’ until I explained this new fangled nonsense...

I wonder who first used this and why... No idea but why is easy, to allow males who identify as women to appropriate the term woman and pretend that their group was just a subset of the female sex , like tall, blonde etc women. The only reason for this term is to validate the idea that transwomen are not male but female.

@Leafstamp

Not sure if this is repeating what others have said, or if I'm expressing it well, but here's my tuppence worth:

Cis = on the same side as.

So cis gender supposedly means your gender 'matches' your sex.

But as we know, gender and sex are different things.

So is this not like saying you are cis -height if you height 'matches' your weight? In what sense could your height match your weight?

What does the 'match' mean in both scenarios?

I guess there is correlation (across the whole population) between gender and sex and gender and between height and weight, but there are to many outliers that to say your height matches your weight or your gender matches your sex is....not very useful?

Sex and gender are different things, yes. But that doesn't mean that they are independent things.

Just look at the definition of transgender to understand the relationship.

@yeahbutnaw

I didn't say they were independent things. In fact I acknowledged they were correlated across the global population (did you even read my post?!)

Out of interest, which definition of transgender do you suggest I look at?

Sex and gender are different things, yes. But that doesn't mean that they are independent things

Ah, are we back to women have lady brain?

Since you’re keen to elaborate @yeahbutnaw, can you please outline the common features of the gender that women and males who identify as women share?

Referring to me as Cis is akin to misgendering me; I can’t be cis if I don’t have a gender identity.

If it’s disrespectful to do that to trans identifying people, it’s disrespectful to us.

no answer about the defining characteristics of the shared gender that women and males who identify as women share then

it's amazing how even the most vociferous posters go quiet when you ask that one

Re OP
cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term. Also GC beliefs are not protected. Your right to have the belief is protected that's all. I can still call it out as nonsense etc. as I can Christianity and any other ideology. If you think being GC is protected then you need to sue the judge in MFs case as he claled it out for what it was. Its why we have no blasphemy laws anymore and if anyone thinks being GC is more important than christianity then you better check who's funding the GC movement.

GC beliefs are protected in the same way as any other belief - (even though they're based on fact - like 'belief' in evolution). I don't think anyone is implying otherwise so not sure what the point of that post was.

We know who is funding our GC movement - we are.

I can still call it out as nonsense etc. as I can Christianity and any other ideology.

Absolutely. However if you insisted on calling somebody 'cis' against their wishes, it is possible that this could be classed as harassment, just as misgendering could be classed as harassment depending on context.

I completely support your right to discuss gender in a theoretical way, and would love to know why you think anyone would assume that any woman would identify with gendered expectations, because to me that seems like the definition of sexism.

cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term.

Recognised by whom? and please point me to the relevant law that states this.

It is not recognised by me and many other women and I don't consent to it being used to describe me.

Referring to me as Cis is akin to misgendering me; I can’t be cis if I don’t have a gender identity.

This is me.

Re OP
cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term. Also GC beliefs are not protected. Your right to have the belief is protected that's all. I can still call it out as nonsense etc.

To many - including me, cis is a slur and misgendering - as pps have said - inflicts a belief or identity on you which you don’t have or in my case - reject. I am a woman because I am female. Feelings, dress, presentation aren’t relevant. Women as adult human females is protected in the equality act and now thanks to Maya so is the immutability of sex - which everyone has always believed.

Cis is the equivalent of work policy calling me a heretic, apostate or unbeliever - when atheist is the accurate term.

@DisgustedofManchester

Re OP cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term. Also GC beliefs are not protected. Your right to have the belief is protected that's all. I can still call it out as nonsense etc. as I can Christianity and any other ideology. If you think being GC is protected then you need to sue the judge in MFs case as he claled it out for what it was. Its why we have no blasphemy laws anymore and if anyone thinks being GC is more important than christianity then you better check who's funding the GC movement.

Calling me cis is forcing your belief system on me. And if you keep doing it, it would constitute harassment.

As the court said, this is not a license to keep misgendering people with impunity. I don't 'identify as cisgender'. So please don't misgender me.

@RedDogsBeg

cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term.

Recognised by whom? and please point me to the relevant law that states this.

It is not recognised by me and many other women and I don't consent to it being used to describe me.

Relevant discussion involving Peter Daly (one of Maya Forstater's legal team), Adam Wagner (human rights lawyer), and Audrey Ludwig (discrimination solicitor):

This is my difficulty with your position Adam: it is all on the facts. Para 99 (screenshot again below) is emphatic. I understand your desire to find a simple tweetable one-size test. Employers do need to advise (and be advised) ofc. But I think over-distilling is incorrect [PD includes a screenshot of relevant ruling.]

twitter.com/peter_daly/status/1409143714065403911?s=20

Ludwig considers:

The new cases I think we are going to see more of are claims by GC people alleging harassment by other employees/ fellow trade unionists etc saying comments like TERF and bigot; as social media suggests that the implications of Forstater haven't filtered through

It will be interesting if cis within a workplace setting is eventually established as compelling participation in a belief system that an individual doesn't share.

It’s a slur. Recently seen on the t-shirt of a 6”4 blonde with the words ‘kill’ next to it. And let’s face it, when certain people use it, you know it’s meant as an insult.

Hands up who agrees?
✋

So how come loads of women say ‘no I don’t like it, it’s a slur don’t use it’ and get told ‘no it’s not, we will use it anyway’ - and then her their language policed as to what they must call others (lest it be literal, actual murder)?

@DisgustedofManchester

Re OP cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term. Also GC beliefs are not protected. Your right to have the belief is protected that's all. I can still call it out as nonsense etc. as I can Christianity and any other ideology. If you think being GC is protected then you need to sue the judge in MFs case as he claled it out for what it was. Its why we have no blasphemy laws anymore and if anyone thinks being GC is more important than christianity then you better check who's funding the GC movement.

It must be so very boring, being a TRA. I don't think I could stand to repeat the same nonsense and lies over and over.

@DisgustedofManchester

Re OP cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term. Also GC beliefs are not protected. Your right to have the belief is protected that's all. I can still call it out as nonsense etc. as I can Christianity and any other ideology. If you think being GC is protected then you need to sue the judge in MFs case as he claled it out for what it was. Its why we have no blasphemy laws anymore and if anyone thinks being GC is more important than christianity then you better check who's funding the GC movement.

"Women! Sit down and SHUT UP! I WILL DECIDE WHAT YOU CAN AND CANNOT OFFEND YOU!"

Telling women what they perceive as a slur and what they should not is a massive own goal.

Bless

cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term.

You're wildly missing the point. 'Man's is also a recognised term but does that make it appropriate to call a transwoman that? Cis has a particular meaning in relation to gender identity. I actually don't have a problem with women who want to and believe they have a gender identity, calling themselves cis. I also don't mind too much if people ask me if that fits for me. What I DO object to is people assuming that they can call me cis - because that is basically assuming they know my gender identity (when I don't have one).

Misgendering is either a problem for everyone (in which case you should not call anyone cis without knowing (by asking or them telling you, no guessing allowed) whether that's what they identify as; or it's a problem for no-one (in which case I can call a person who looks like a man a man). Which one it is because it can't be both.

Cis is the equivalent of work policy calling me a heretic, apostate or unbeliever - when atheist is the accurate term.

Well put.

I can still call it out as nonsense etc

That would be interesting. On what factual
basis? When did you prove it was possible to be born into the wrong sex body for your innate gender essence?

We know who is funding our GC movement - we are

yep

and yeah, must be boring when all you can do is say the equivalent of 'no you smell'

@DisgustedofManchester

Re OP cis isn't a slur, its a recognised term. Also GC beliefs are not protected. Your right to have the belief is protected that's all. I can still call it out as nonsense etc. as I can Christianity and any other ideology. If you think being GC is protected then you need to sue the judge in MFs case as he claled it out for what it was. Its why we have no blasphemy laws anymore and if anyone thinks being GC is more important than christianity then you better check who's funding the GC movement.

I am very uncomfortable with the idea that the idea that knowing as 99.999% of the world does, what male and female are, and using the words in their language for man woman boy girl etc. Is no more than a belief.

This is into the realms of the USA extreme religious types who want the creation story taught next to evolution in science because evolution is 'only' a theory'.

It's either a total lack of understanding about theory proof etc in science, or a deliberate misunderstanding.

It gives drives me mad tbh and now it's a 'belief' that mammals that are human come in two sexes, with well established differences in their role in reproduction and other physiological areas.

I mean seriously?

I get that case was about MF not believing that humans can change sex but the end point, that the most basic fundamental thing that humans will have known from before we had language is nothing more than a belief, is incredibly worrying to me.

oldsquare.co.uk/forstater-v-cgd-europe-others/

Your right to have the belief is protected that's all. I can still call it out as nonsense etc

and I can call out the belief in gender ideology as nonsense, etc., and can do so without being discriminated against, abused, harassed or threatened - marvellous isn't it.

The only people who have been behaving as if we have blasphemy laws are those steeped in gender ideology, their actions and words are straight out of the heresy trials of old.