GC protected belief and use of cis

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Now that gender critical beliefs are classed as a protected belief, can we argue that the use of ‘cis’ ‘cis women’ etc. - particularly in the workplace - constitute as harassment?

exactly - call all women "women" and when you need to differentiate between cis and trans, use cis and trans. As a biologist, I've never understood the fuss about "cis" tbh. It just makes the discussion easier, where differentiation is needed.

That presupposes a belief in gender ideology, which I don’t share. In fact I think gender ideology is oppressive, misogynistic and homophobic and for those reasons am actively against it.

The people you call “trans women” are not women at all afaic. Using “cis” and “trans” to “differentiate” between biologically female people and biologically male trans people gives substance and succour to the falsehood that some biologically male people “are” women. An ideologically driven falsehood that, as I’ve said, I see as oppressive, misogynistic and homophobic.

So that’s why I’m making a “fuss” about it. (Interestingly dismissive choice of phrasing there, btw.) Because I will not be forced to collude in my own oppression. Oppression that people like you seem to be determined to force on me.

And you can disingenuously claim not to be aware of this all you like, just as you can claim to be a biologist, if you so choose, but it really doesn’t make any difference to how hollow your “argument” is.

I would describe myself as a woman who doesn't have a gender identity. I think that's clear. I am not cis.

Using "cis" is really an easy way to answer either question fully and unambiguously.

For me it would be similar to answering yes or no if somebody asked whether I was ‘saved’. Either answer would imply that I believe in the Christian concept of being saved.

Exactly, merrymouse.

And in a culture where people who weren’t Christians were being discriminated against and marginalised against for their (lack of) belief.

Bloody extra against in there

Adult human females are not a subset of women - therefore they are not cis, and many women find that label offensive as it implies they believe in gender ideology.

For me it would be similar to answering yes or no if somebody asked whether I was ‘saved’. Either answer would imply that I believe in the Christian concept of being saved.

Exactly this.

exactly - call all women "women" and when you need to differentiate between cis and trans, use cis and trans. As a biologist, I've never understood the fuss about "cis" tbh. It just makes the discussion easier, where differentiation is needed.

Even simpler call all women "women " and all transwomen " transwomen".

There is differentiation - women and trans.

exactly - call all women "women" and when you need to differentiate between cis and trans, use cis and trans. As a biologist, I've never understood the fuss about "cis" tbh. It just makes the discussion easier, where differentiation is needed.

No, call women women and transwomen transwomen that is all the differentiation required, I don't want and nor will I accept a meaningless prefix to a word used to describe me, it's neither needed nor warranted and I'll make all the fuss I like about it if it's all the same to you.

@RedDogsBeg

exactly - call all women "women" and when you need to differentiate between cis and trans, use cis and trans. As a biologist, I've never understood the fuss about "cis" tbh. It just makes the discussion easier, where differentiation is needed.

No, call women women and transwomen transwomen that is all the differentiation required, I don't want and nor will I accept a meaningless prefix to a word used to describe me, it's neither needed nor warranted and I'll make all the fuss I like about it if it's all the same to you.

it is, of course. However, I'll happily refer to myself as "cis" when helpful in a discussion, just like I will point out that I am tall for example.

Helpful to who ?

You are tall. All good

Am not a subset of woman

I am a woman

Transwoman are transwoman

However, I'll happily refer to myself as "cis" when helpful in a discussion

You do that, I can see no occasion or discussion where it would be remotely helpful for me to refer to myself as a sub class of my own sex class. Transwomen are NOT of the sex class female, therefore they are not women, ergo the only differential required is transwoman.

Whatever is considered harassment for misgendering would have to be equally applicable to the use of cis?

Exactly. If misgdendering constitutes harassment then so does the use of the word cis against someone's wishes.

If 'cis' is 'just a descriptor' then 'he' is 'just a descriptor' for a human with XY chromosomes and a penis and testicles.

What's sauce for the goose....

“Toffee - were you always female sex?”
“I was born f*** female, you cheeky sod”

Nope, can’t see where I’d need c**.

I think people's gender, if they have one, is only relevant if they are trans. For people who aren't trans, gender and their own gender is usually irrelevant at best, problematic at worse (depending on whether you are gender critical).

i can't think of a single context where someone would need to know what someone's gender is, unless they are unhappy with their natal sex and so would rather be identified by their gender identity. I don't have any issue with this so long as sex and sexed bodies aren't important in that context.

I'll happily refer to myself as "cis"

you'll happily refer to yourself as someone who fully accepts the feminine gender and all the social limitations and disadvantages that go along with that?

crikey

I must have an easy going workplace.

I was asked do I identify as a cis woman or trans-woman. I just replied "woman" you know what my biological sex has been called for centuries, and is the common English Language use.

HR crossed out the cis and left me as woman 🤷🏻‍♀️

Job done.

Does gender just mean conforming to gender stereotypes? If not what does gender actually mean?

it is, of course. However, I'll happily refer to myself as "cis" when helpful in a discussion, just like I will point out that I am tall for example.
😂

' As a biologist, I've never understood the fuss about "cis" tbh'

What do you understand cis to mean, out of interest?

Incidentally, just FYI.

I have seen some trans women, including iirc one who is in the public eye.

Referring to themselves as ciswomen. And also female from birth.

As a biologist who studied a bit of chemistry I always thought cis referred to a molecule where the two functional groups were on the same side of a carbon carbon double bond.

Thing is none of it is logical and everyone makes up their own rules as they go along. Contradiction and inconsistency are absolutely fine.

Example.

On a recent thread there was a poster who was discussing a topic and putting the twaw view.

It came to the question about what words are available to describe the female half of the population of the world.

And then I raised something that I find really revealing about the new language.

In news outlets and charities that use things like menstruator on some of their items, things that are not front page.

When it comes to money raising ads or front page news they use women/ girl to mean sex. This is totally inconsistent.

I asked that poster how headlines like
'Uighar women sexually abused in Chinese camps' should be rewritten.

I was told that the headlines were fine because, trying to remember. There was no reason to change it unless a large number of them were trans and something about how you can tell if people are trans by the way they look...???

Which is just totally counter to everything else I've read.

The real reason they don't write headlines like that is because it is crass. And the general public would be baffled and find it offensive.

'Uighar people with vaginas sexually abused' is really obviously dehumanising and grim.

And that's why the new words for women are only used in certain contexts.

That was a really good point you raised, NiceGerbil, and you’re right, the poster you addressed it to had absolutely nothing in the way of reasoning why terms like “menstruators” etc are not just acceptable but positively necessary in some situations but not others.

Everybody knows what a woman is when it comes to taking away our rights, oppressing and abusing us. Just as they always have done. Just as they’re still doing now, everywhere you look.