GC protected belief and use of cis

[OffYouGoNow]

Now that gender critical beliefs are classed as a protected belief, can we argue that the use of ‘cis’ ‘cis women’ etc. - particularly in the workplace - constitute as harassment?

@EndoplasmicReticulum

As a biologist who studied a bit of chemistry I always thought cis referred to a molecule where the two functional groups were on the same side of a carbon carbon double bond.

What a nice, scientific explanation. The sort of thing you might expect from an actual scientist. Thank you very much!

@CatherinaJTV It just makes the discussion easier, where differentiation is needed.

If differentiation is needed, then it is this: women and transwomen. Men and transmen.

There. THAT'S the differentiation. No 'cis' is needed. Indeed, 'cis' is redundant and makes the discussion more confusing, not easier.

@CatherinaJTV If I was a trans woman, I'd answer the question of whether I am a woman with "yes",

Then you would be wrong. You would not be a woman. You'd be a transwoman. The trans is the differentiation.

I the question was "do you identify as a woman" and I'd answer "yes", people would think I am trans.

No they wouldn't, if they were using basic human logic. My answer would be of COURSE I identify as a woman, I am a woman.

Using "cis" is really a confusing way to answer either question and it gives an ambiguous answer as not many people would know what 'cis' even means so it would make it more confusing.

Transwoman

and

woman.

It cannot be more clearer, simpler, logical and unambiguous than that.
Using a slur that isn't well-known in English usage muddies the waters and those who use it have nefarious agendas for using such a slur than isn't in common usage.

@EndoplasmicReticulum

As a biologist who studied a bit of chemistry I always thought cis referred to a molecule where the two functional groups were on the same side of a carbon carbon double bond.

Good to have an actual biologist reply, and you're so right.

"cis" means "on the same side as"

It is used in a lot of contexts in biology and chemistry - for example, I used to work on adhesion molecules that could bind in cis (another adhesion molecule on the same cell) or in trans (an adhesion molecule on an adjacent cell).

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I'll happily refer to myself as "cis"

you'll happily refer to yourself as someone who fully accepts the feminine gender and all the social limitations and disadvantages that go along with that?

crikey

"cis" means nothing like that. You're making stuff up here.

"cis" means "on the same side as" -how would that even refer to sex - same side of what?

It is or it isn’t.
You are or you aren’t.
Extra virgin olive oil (and people) is ‘extra’ in what sense?

It’s just a way to say ‘we are all men/women (ie the same), but some are trans and some are c*’. Yet we get gip for calling a woman a woman, but read newspaper reports which purposely refer to ‘she/he’ and ‘woman/man’ (when they are trans) then I don’t know what the hell is going on linguistically (well I do).

"cis" means nothing like that. You're making stuff up here.

No, Bernard is right.

Gender is social and cultural expectations related men and women. Therefore if you are ‘Cis’ you are putting yourself in the femininity gender box.

100 years ago you would have been identifying with the idea that women shouldn’t go to university.

Here you go, the Oxford definition as provided by the first thing that comes up. It's for those whose "gender corresponds with their birth sex"
It's effectively glueing gender to sex.
Maybe you don't agree with this definition, but it's how huge numbers of people are using it. If you want to identify with that, I have no problem with that but it's deeply problematic that so many of us are being labelled with a word that we find incredibly sexist and being called bigots when we object to it.

No, Bernard is right

I may have that embroidered on my handkerchiefs

and yep, this

100 years ago you would have been identifying with the idea that women shouldn’t go to university

what do you think gender identity is @CatherinaJTV ? what do you think trans people are identifying with?

what is handedness? I feel comfortable as a woman. It feels "right" like writing with my right hand feels "right". I assume that's the same for a transwoman.

But we are going very far away from the OP - the question was whether the use of "cis" was harassment. I don't think there's a legal basis for that at all.

I feel comfortable as a woman

in what way?

do you feel comfortable being catcalled for example?

do you feel comfortable not going out for runs after dark?

do you feel comfortable earning less than your male counterparts?

If you lived in Saudi would you feel comfortable not being allowed to drive?

what is it about being a woman that makes you so incredibly comfortable ?

But we are going very far away from the OP - the question was whether the use of "cis" was harassment. I don't think there's a legal basis for that at all.

Obviously, as with other forms of harassment it would depend on the particular situation.

It feels "right" like writing with my right hand feels "right". I assume that's the same for a transwoman.

However plenty of women don’t feel like this while agreeing that they are female in the same way that they agree that their blood type is A positive.

I wouldn’t have the foggiest idea what you meant about ‘feeling right’ about being a woman. It would be like feeling ‘right’ about having a liver.

"cis" means "on the same side as"

How is it relevant to male and female people?

what is handedness?

Handedness is chiral. Enantiomer not diastereoisomer.

I agree with PP who said the rules would broadly follow those for using the wrong pronoun, ie a mistake once or twice is ok but repeatedly and intentionally calling someone cis who has asked not be is likely to be harassment, ditto repeatedly and intentionally referring to someone by the wrong name or pronoun.

Here’s a useful article:

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/06/26/you-say-objective-i-say-subjective-what-is-the-legal-test-a-blog-about-harassment-and-protected-beliefs/

I don't know when the term 'cis' started being used, but I can see it being less of a problem when trans used to mean some-one who was unhappy with or had changed their body. 'Cis' then did mean 'not trans' , whereas now it doesn't.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I feel comfortable as a woman

in what way?

do you feel comfortable being catcalled for example?

do you feel comfortable not going out for runs after dark?

do you feel comfortable earning less than your male counterparts?

If you lived in Saudi would you feel comfortable not being allowed to drive?

what is it about being a woman that makes you so incredibly comfortable ?

that I feel comfortable in my female body does not mean I agree with the oppression of women by the patriarchy.

Hated being catcalled, but not being a girl

I am not running, but I am comfortable out in the dark, always have been

I can assure you, I am no longer earning less than my male counterparts

I would not move to Saudi Arabia

Are you uncomfortable in your own skin? I am not. I would not want to be different, as much as I'd like men (and the many women propping up the patriarchy) to behave differently.

@GrownUpBeans

I don't know when the term 'cis' started being used, but I can see it being less of a problem when trans used to mean some-one who was unhappy with or had changed their body. 'Cis' then did mean 'not trans' , whereas now it doesn't.

what does it mean now, you think?

[quote Leafstamp]I agree with PP who said the rules would broadly follow those for using the wrong pronoun, ie a mistake once or twice is ok but repeatedly and intentionally calling someone cis who has asked not be is likely to be harassment, ditto repeatedly and intentionally referring to someone by the wrong name or pronoun.

Here’s a useful article:

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/06/26/you-say-objective-i-say-subjective-what-is-the-legal-test-a-blog-about-harassment-and-protected-beliefs/[/quote]
I can see that - don't be rude. Nevertheless, if there was, say, guidance at work that specified "cis and trans women", it would not be harassment.

@humanitariancrisis

what is handedness?

Handedness is chiral. Enantiomer not diastereoisomer.

I meant being left- or right handed (obviously)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

"cis" means "on the same side as"

How is it relevant to male and female people?

now you are just being facetious.

'Are you uncomfortable in your own skin?'

Well, I was very uncomfortable with what my skin, my body, my looks meant around how I was treated.

I felt terribly confused and angry about this. I didn't understand why other people did that, I felt at odds with it all, I just couldn't understand what I was missing.

And yes. Untold numbers of women and girls feel uncomfortable in their own skin. High rates of eating disorders, the people who resort to dangerous products that they think will change their body or their skin colour, for example.

I do not have a trans identity nor a cis one.

That kind of means that anything using these terms I should not consider relevant to me.

Not sure if you have any thoughts on how to phrase things to include those who do not identify either way.