Is it ok to deceive a sexual partner about your biological sex?

[Clymene]

This is not a TAAT but that is about a horrible violent attack and this question is quite separate.

In any sexual encounter, do you have the right to expect the other person to disclose their biological sex if they visually appear to be of the other sex?

Essentially, does a lesbian have the right to be upset if the person they were female before they got naked has a penis?

Does a gay man have the right to know that someone who appears to be male has a vagina before he has sex?

Does the nature of the encounter matter? If it's a casual encounter, is the onus on the person who appears to be the other sex to come clean in advance, or is it the responsibility of the other person to check before proceeding?

Just thinking could it be the problem that a transwoman or transman believes they are the opposite sex so see no need to declare it? They don't believe they are decriving. What about non binary people how do they fit into deception? Unless it is by sex it is very confusing and Stonewall trying to make a hash of consent is scary.

What I had meant was that everyone, regardless of whether the encounter is anonymous and fleeting or part of a new long term relationship, deserves to be able to consent to having sex that is safe and within their boundaries
Absolutely this.

I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule.

Frame it as 'ensure you don't violate another person's protected characteristic of sexual orientation' - does that clarify it for you?

Here's Stonewall's para on their 'A Vision for Change' doc [emphasis mine]:

'SEX BY DECEPTION
Recent ‘sex by deception’ cases involving trans people and gender identity issues have revealed an alarming lack of
clarity around trans people’s rights and obligations to disclose or not disclose their trans history to their sexual partners.
These cases demonstrate that it is possible for non-disclosure of a person’s trans status to impair the validity of consent.
This leaves a great many trans individuals at risk of prosecution for a criminal offence. It is, however, still unclear as to
whether the courts regard this to be the case for a trans person who has undergone medical transition, and it is further
greyed by whether or not an individual can be defined as trans, based on their appearance, by the court. Clarity is
urgently needed.'

www.stonewall.org.uk/vision-change

blogs.lse.ac.uk/equityDiversityInclusion/2017/05/a-vision-for-change-and-stonewall-supporting-the-advancement-of-trans-equality/

I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule

Not your "trans status" that is meaningless and so not relevant, especially in these days of non binary, gender fluid, transfemme demigirls and aromantic catboys. Your sex, sex is very very important in sexual behaviour of any kind. Sexual orientation, sexual intercourse, oral sex, anal sex etc. The word sex crops up a lot because they are all to do with sex.

It is never ok.

Consent should never be based on anything other than absolute trust.

Lying, misrepresentation or omission of something so fundamentally important to many means that consent waters are absolutely muddied.

@JellySice

* I am finding it really uncomfortable the drift of judgement occurring around this discussion that people who have casual sex encounters 'deserve' what they get which is how is it all coming across to me.*

I'm absolutely not saying this.

I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule.

There's possibly a bit of devil's advocate going on here as well, because I am firmly gender critical.

And I usually agree with your posts Jelly. In saying that, this subject seems to be quite divisive. Yesterday on the other thread I encountered 'but what about if you found out that your prospective sex partner was not really a brunette' and even 'what about if you found out they were gender critical'? And there was lots of discussion about people wanting blow jobs from random people should not care which sex the person's mouth belongs to and it did deteriorate from there even.

So, I have seen a great deal of twisting on this topic. I am sorry if I sounded like I was directing my ire at you. I am just quite disturbed that there are posters who have argued vehemently (ie. not you) that knowing the sex of the person you are having sex does not need to be disclosed in casual sex situations.

And to comment on I'm trying to explore whether declaring your trans status must be a blanket rule.

To me, this is not about someone's trans status. This is about honesty around genitals, type of sexual activity that is expected/reality, and respect for someone's sexual orientation.

And to me, this also includes knowing whether the prospective sex partner has a neo-vagina/penis. Absolutely this should be disclosed too. These are body parts that will be in intimate contact with another person's body parts, and in the case of piv, very intimate body parts.

Why doesn't a sex partner deserve to know that the body part that they are in contact with is different in this way than what they are expecting? And before sex starts.

Not to concentrate to much on case recently in the news, but to look overall at how a victim of rape by deception (or any other sexual assault) , in particular a female one, may be treated by police, CPS and judiciary it is worth concentrating again at the judge's statements that prompted this discussion. The "finding out was transgender" refers to feeling a penis and testicles.

These all refer to a biological male. A woman could be a victim of crime by a biological male and have to listen to the judge describe the person in these terms.

"You were even happy to entertain his girlfriend
you were in the company of an attractive woman

undeniably attractive woman was transgender," the judge said

no concern at all for the woman

You threw words around like 'deceit'. You accused her of raping you

She is a woman, that is how she identifies

And this horrendous bit of rape apologia
Judge Knott added: "Frankly, if you weren't prepared to take the time to know more about her that is on you

Maybe you will be a bit more careful in the future. You discovered in your mind too late

Ha, after me being a bit scoldy to others about talking about a specific case I did it myself. Sorry I thought I was on the other thread. Oops. I'll report it .

This is what meant to say here

tried to find this out yesterday and not one person answered my question of 'why don't you think you need to disclose, or think it is respectful to disclose'

Interesting they won't come here and explain @Helleofabore isn't it?
I think were distracting by bad people, cocaine, garages and violence so as to avoid the central issue. Consent.
Shame to see so many deletions, raped women should be given more leeway to express our pain and anger when discussing consent issues I think.

Prosthetic leg? Mastectomy bra? Denture? Do they also have to be declared?

(TBH I cannot imagine anyone with a prosthesis not declaring it, simply to avoid the hurt of rejection mid-foreplay.)

Lightbulb moment! Ignore my previous posts.

I thought I was presenting the devil's advocate view in order to explore all possibilities - an open mind. But I wasn't. I was Being Kind.

I have been thinking like a person who wants sexual encounters to be mutually pleasing. And anyone who truly sought mutual pleasure would be honest - whether about their genitals, their trans status, or their prostheses.

Lack of openness and of honesty is all about power in these situations. It's nothing to do with privacy or the understanding that everyone involved is open to the possibilities available.

Prosthetic leg? Mastectomy bra? Denture? Do they also have to be declared?

What impact does this have on a person's sexual orientation?

If it's a casual encounter, is the onus on the person who appears to be the other sex to come clean in advance, or is it the responsibility of the other person to check before proceeding?

I think the nature of the encounter is important. If (as in the case that inspired this debate) you decide to have sex with a stranger you have met at a party, I think the onus is on you to check you are happy with what you're doing.

If you ask, and are lied to, then that would be deception and unacceptable. If you don't ask, but go ahead anyway, in my view it's a risk you've taken.

In the context of a relationship, I would agree that both parties should be honest about biological sex/expectations.

In the context of having casual sex with someone who is a complete stranger, the onus is on each party to complete due diligence before going ahead.

Huh. Dunno why I got deleted. Never mind

Prosthetic leg? Mastectomy bra? Denture? Do they also have to be declared?
I think those are all quite different to encountering a vagina where you expected a penis for example.
I would feel very deceived if I thought I was going to have PIV sex with man and found in fact it was a trans man intending to use a dildo.
Then there's the awkwardness/potential risk of declining sex when that becomes apparent at a late stage.
People should be given that information prior to sex happening. Otherwise its not informed consent.

Please can we not talk about that specific instance?

No specific instance was mentioned. It's a matter of principle. If I don't like what I find when people get their kit off, I don't beat them up. And I don't expect them to assault me if I'm not what they expected. I do try to give people a heads up... 'I wouldn't, mate, I look even worse with my clothes off.' That kind of thing.

@DoingItMyself

Please can we not talk about that specific instance?

No specific instance was mentioned. It's a matter of principle. If I don't like what I find when people get their kit off, I don't beat them up. And I don't expect them to assault me if I'm not what they expected. I do try to give people a heads up... 'I wouldn't, mate, I look even worse with my clothes off.' That kind of thing.

Or alternatively, you could get their consent before.

No it's not. You have expect not get what you want if you do.

Prosthetic leg? Mastectomy bra? Denture? Do they also have to be declared?

Wtf? 🙄

Which utter thicko thought the suffering leading to needing one of the above is comparable to being a lying twat?

@JellySlice

Prosthetic leg? Mastectomy bra? Denture? Do they also have to be declared?

(TBH I cannot imagine anyone with a prosthesis not declaring it, simply to avoid the hurt of rejection mid-foreplay.)

The difference is they all (including blondes vs brunettes ,or whatever ) are about preference. Preferences can change, are subjective, sometimes irrelevant ( I wouldn't date certain types of men , but they'd be ok for a ONS for example) , they can be ignored (like having a type but dating/marrying the complete opposite because they're worth it) and so on.

Sexuality is innate. You are born with it. It is what it is, and to many people having sex with someone that doesn't match their sexual orientation causes a visceral reaction.

I don't know if I'm making sense, it's hard to put into words .

Thanks for starting this thread, OP. This is a separate question and issue to the attack.
For me, this is simple. If your prospective sexual partner is likely to consider something essential to their consent, then it should be disclosed.
Deliberately hiding something because a sexual partner wouldn't consent if they knew i is creepy and entitled at best and rape at worst.
It's extremely concerning how many people will casually cross someone else's sexual boundaries and defend their so-called 'right' to do so.
No one has a right to sex with another person under false pretences. No one.

No it's not OK. Ever.

We don't life in Barbarella. Sex is about bodies and safety. Lying just leads to a world of harm and prevents all positive outcomes.

What Turtle said.

This conversation came about because of the, quite frankly, abhorrent summation of a UK judge.